first of all, congrats to the meet directors and all the volunteers on a job well done. so organized and efficient!! very impressive. the only thing i wish someone could explain to me is why the usms champ. committee changed the team scoring from large, medium and small team to clumping everyone in the same category. seems extremely unfair to have what i call "real teams" competing against state mega teams. there is no possibility for "real teams" to ever come close to competing against them. if you are going to give team awards at the end of the meet, is there any way you can do it fairly? our team is extremely proud to have gotten as many team members as we did to go to natls. (most of them for the first time), but unfortunately they were very disillusioned (as was i) with the idea that we would be competing against state teams. as one of the coaches i didn't have an explanation. even though we were very proud of our 7th place finish in men's division, and our 12th place in combined, we were only one of a few "real teams" in the top ten. would appreciate responses. maybe even someone from the champ.committee could explain how they felt this scoring system would be more fair to the majority of swimmers. then i can pass it along to my teammates.. i don't want them to be so disillusioned that they lose interest in attending any future natls. thanks
LOL, I tried to figure out how to quote but I'm afraid I'll mess it up, so...
It's not too tough. When you read a message, in the bottom right corner is a button that says "Quote." Just click it! That will quote the entirety of the message. To pick and choose what you want to quote, insert the quote and /quote commands before and after what you want to quote. (It took me awhile to figure it out too.)
Meg, you said, "I don't want to speak for Paul, but for myself, I do not object to two divisions, as long as within those divisions we have S-M-L."
I still don't understand why you wouldn't support 2 divisions WITHOUT S/M/L. The downfalls of S/M/L team scoring have been outlines, and they seem like common sense to me. Can someone please try to convince me why S/M/L offers more advantages than problems? I would like to actually read specific comments - other than "it's the most simple" or "it's the best." And please, whoever decides to take this challenge, please keep in mind we are trying to encourage participation (among other goals). Thanks in advance!
I thought I did explain it! But to repeat, and to use the recent SC championships as an example, I don't think it's fair or encourages participation for my seven-member team to go up against PNA's 100+ member team. I have heard horror stories about how swimmers were discouraged from participating because they'd bump their team into another size category, but it doesn't concern me in the slightest. Largely because I don't see how it could have happened with the divisions being set after entries close. You can probably predict that you're going to be small if you're only taking a few, or that you're going to be large if you're taking a lot, but if you're taking somewhere in between, you really don't know. In Indy in 2004, the only time SKY was anything but a small team, we had about the same number of men and women on our team, but our women wound up as a medium team and our men as a large team (could have been the other way around). I don't remember if we were large or medium combined, but I do know that we didn't even place in the top 3 of whichever division we were in (probably large). I've also never heard of a specific example of a team who perpetrated such an act or a swimmer who was victimized. And, as I've said before, we don't even know who's going until the entries close, so how could we discourage people from entering?
Regaridng geographical limits, I agree there should be SOMETHING. I agree that a specific radius would not work for various reasons. But, I believe it was Leianne who mentioned that 90% (for example) of a team's registered members should live within the LMSC. I think that is completely appropriate.
Huh? I betcha 99% of SKY's members live in the Kentucky LMSC. So now you're saying we're a local/club team after all? The issue is not that you live in the LMSC, but whether you live in close proximity to the club you're competing for.
As far as Team TYR. Their members can actually switch teams from 1 meet to another. I've always been confused as to how this happens, and what their USMS cards look like (maybe Julie Heather could answer?), but I know that one of their swimmers switched from Team TYR to SCAQ to TYR to SCAQ within 2 months of meets last year. How does that work?
In theory, you could compete for six clubs in one year. You have to wait 60 days after competing for one club before you can compete for another. You can still compete during those 60 days, but you have to compete unattached.
I don't think it's too productive to get all worked up about Team TYR. Didn't they come together strictly for Worlds? Which was a meet without team scoring, so who cares?
Finally, I agree with Meg in that there needs to be some leeway for "reasonable" judgment calls in determining when a team should fall into 1 of the 2 categories. As was evidenced, there are so many kinds of teams and workout groups, we need to allow for someone to employ the "we know it when we see it" perspective, and let the team challenge the ruling if they don't like it.
Woo hoo! Someone agrees with me about something!
But, I like like the guidelines you are all coming up with, as long as there's that element of freedom for whoever is making that determination. And also, and the end of the day, if Team TYR ends up being a Local/Club team, then like Barry Bonds, everyone will know how to read those final results.*
You had me on your side until your * comment. The TYR folks are all really nice guys, I promise!
The can of worms needs some stirring I think.
How about this? Heh, heh, heh.
Separate the divisions at Nationals: Regional Team vs. Local Club Team
Within these two divisions have SML. Use the numbers Leianne suggested, or something similar. But THEN, if any team is excluding a member from competing at Nationals (because they are trying to fit into a predetermined division) then that team should have sanctions against them, and that swimmer (being exluded) should have the opportunity to swim at Nationals unattached.
I await my doom :agree:
Actually, Karen, I think I agree with you!:party2:
Meg,
May I buy you dinner? :smooch:
Of course I don't know what those sanctions would be. Maybe... if a swimmer lodges a complaint, that they were not allowed to compete, maybe that team should be DQd from the team scoring.
Hmmph, take that you meanies!
:shakeshead:
Separate the divisions at Nationals: Regional Team vs. Local Club Team Within these two divisions have SML.I don’t think anyone disputes that regional club teams and local club teams with SML is one of the viable solutions to team scoring at nationals.
A couple of issues that I see are:
1) Defining in code what exactly is a local club or what is a regional club
2) Coming up with one solution that will receive majority support of our HOD in 2008 to prevent waiting for 2 more years
I still believe our best solution is to make the Championship Committee responsible for team scoring at championships. This way instead of coming up with the definitive definition of a local club, they can, in policy, 1) describe the general characteristics of one or the other, 2) make a list of what they consider regional clubs, and 3) define an arbitration process to allow clubs to petition to change classifications.
All of this could be done with one line of code in the rule book, and one section in the Championship Committee Policies and Procedures manual. And as a benefit it would provide the flexibility to tweak the model to meet championship host and member needs.
There were 3 meets in 4 weeks, each 2 weeks apart, and there was a lot of switching. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't even effect me, I'm just curious how it's allowed.
Or perhaps just overlooked...?
How many words do we get to define something in code?
As many words as needed but in only three sentences according to Paul's post previously. But you can use...to keep it going...whenever you need to...as long as you can make your point. :)
But somehow that 60 day rule didn't apply last year when people switched teams so quickly to attempt to break a relay record. (There were 3 meets in 4 weeks, each 2 weeks apart, and there was a lot of switching. I'm just curious how it's alowed.)For events sanctioned by USMS rule 201.3.5 ALWAYS applies.
Now if a swimmer swims at a USMS sanctioned event with one club, they can represent a different club at an event NOT sanctioned by USMS. For example, a number of swimmers represent their Y at Y Masters Nationals and then compete with their USMS club for USMS SCN a week or 2 later.
If this is not the case in your allegation, please PM me with the specifics of which you speak.
201.3.5—A swimmer shall not represent any club in competition for 60 consecutive days before transferring affiliation to another club, unless this transfer takes place at the time of annual registration. A swimmer may declare unattached status at any time without written application.
Swim,
Someone PMd me and told me that they knew of one time when a team scratched a swimmer out of Nationals because they saw they would be in the medium division instead of the large. It was a host club of a Nationals and had insider information...
Other than that, I haven't heard of this being done, so I don't really think that my idea for DQing the team would ever really happen? However, at least all swimmers would have an avenue for recourse, IF it did happen. And swimmers would have to know about the rule. I, for one, am not totally savvy with USMS rules...
Rob,
Can we use smileys to write the code? :lmao:
It's been my experience,since 1993, that the "home teams" have the advantage at Nationals. It's a geographic reality. I don't mind this. It's just the way it is. Perhaps teams that are really interested in winning Nationals will bid to have them?
