first of all, congrats to the meet directors and all the volunteers on a job well done. so organized and efficient!! very impressive. the only thing i wish someone could explain to me is why the usms champ. committee changed the team scoring from large, medium and small team to clumping everyone in the same category. seems extremely unfair to have what i call "real teams" competing against state mega teams. there is no possibility for "real teams" to ever come close to competing against them. if you are going to give team awards at the end of the meet, is there any way you can do it fairly? our team is extremely proud to have gotten as many team members as we did to go to natls. (most of them for the first time), but unfortunately they were very disillusioned (as was i) with the idea that we would be competing against state teams. as one of the coaches i didn't have an explanation. even though we were very proud of our 7th place finish in men's division, and our 12th place in combined, we were only one of a few "real teams" in the top ten. would appreciate responses. maybe even someone from the champ.committee could explain how they felt this scoring system would be more fair to the majority of swimmers. then i can pass it along to my teammates.. i don't want them to be so disillusioned that they lose interest in attending any future natls. thanks
LOL, I tried to figure out how to quote but I'm afraid I'll mess it up, so...
It's not too tough. When you read a message, in the bottom right corner is a button that says "Quote." Just click it! That will quote the entirety of the message. To pick and choose what you want to quote, insert the quote and /quote commands before and after what you want to quote. (It took me awhile to figure it out too.)
Meg, you said, "I don't want to speak for Paul, but for myself, I do not object to two divisions, as long as within those divisions we have S-M-L."
I still don't understand why you wouldn't support 2 divisions WITHOUT S/M/L. The downfalls of S/M/L team scoring have been outlines, and they seem like common sense to me. Can someone please try to convince me why S/M/L offers more advantages than problems? I would like to actually read specific comments - other than "it's the most simple" or "it's the best." And please, whoever decides to take this challenge, please keep in mind we are trying to encourage participation (among other goals). Thanks in advance!
I thought I did explain it! But to repeat, and to use the recent SC championships as an example, I don't think it's fair or encourages participation for my seven-member team to go up against PNA's 100+ member team. I have heard horror stories about how swimmers were discouraged from participating because they'd bump their team into another size category, but it doesn't concern me in the slightest. Largely because I don't see how it could have happened with the divisions being set after entries close. You can probably predict that you're going to be small if you're only taking a few, or that you're going to be large if you're taking a lot, but if you're taking somewhere in between, you really don't know. In Indy in 2004, the only time SKY was anything but a small team, we had about the same number of men and women on our team, but our women wound up as a medium team and our men as a large team (could have been the other way around). I don't remember if we were large or medium combined, but I do know that we didn't even place in the top 3 of whichever division we were in (probably large). I've also never heard of a specific example of a team who perpetrated such an act or a swimmer who was victimized. And, as I've said before, we don't even know who's going until the entries close, so how could we discourage people from entering?
Regaridng geographical limits, I agree there should be SOMETHING. I agree that a specific radius would not work for various reasons. But, I believe it was Leianne who mentioned that 90% (for example) of a team's registered members should live within the LMSC. I think that is completely appropriate.
Huh? I betcha 99% of SKY's members live in the Kentucky LMSC. So now you're saying we're a local/club team after all? The issue is not that you live in the LMSC, but whether you live in close proximity to the club you're competing for.
As far as Team TYR. Their members can actually switch teams from 1 meet to another. I've always been confused as to how this happens, and what their USMS cards look like (maybe Julie Heather could answer?), but I know that one of their swimmers switched from Team TYR to SCAQ to TYR to SCAQ within 2 months of meets last year. How does that work?
In theory, you could compete for six clubs in one year. You have to wait 60 days after competing for one club before you can compete for another. You can still compete during those 60 days, but you have to compete unattached.
I don't think it's too productive to get all worked up about Team TYR. Didn't they come together strictly for Worlds? Which was a meet without team scoring, so who cares?
Finally, I agree with Meg in that there needs to be some leeway for "reasonable" judgment calls in determining when a team should fall into 1 of the 2 categories. As was evidenced, there are so many kinds of teams and workout groups, we need to allow for someone to employ the "we know it when we see it" perspective, and let the team challenge the ruling if they don't like it.
Woo hoo! Someone agrees with me about something!
But, I like like the guidelines you are all coming up with, as long as there's that element of freedom for whoever is making that determination. And also, and the end of the day, if Team TYR ends up being a Local/Club team, then like Barry Bonds, everyone will know how to read those final results.*
You had me on your side until your * comment. The TYR folks are all really nice guys, I promise!
LOL, I tried to figure out how to quote but I'm afraid I'll mess it up, so...
It's not too tough. When you read a message, in the bottom right corner is a button that says "Quote." Just click it! That will quote the entirety of the message. To pick and choose what you want to quote, insert the quote and /quote commands before and after what you want to quote. (It took me awhile to figure it out too.)
Meg, you said, "I don't want to speak for Paul, but for myself, I do not object to two divisions, as long as within those divisions we have S-M-L."
I still don't understand why you wouldn't support 2 divisions WITHOUT S/M/L. The downfalls of S/M/L team scoring have been outlines, and they seem like common sense to me. Can someone please try to convince me why S/M/L offers more advantages than problems? I would like to actually read specific comments - other than "it's the most simple" or "it's the best." And please, whoever decides to take this challenge, please keep in mind we are trying to encourage participation (among other goals). Thanks in advance!
I thought I did explain it! But to repeat, and to use the recent SC championships as an example, I don't think it's fair or encourages participation for my seven-member team to go up against PNA's 100+ member team. I have heard horror stories about how swimmers were discouraged from participating because they'd bump their team into another size category, but it doesn't concern me in the slightest. Largely because I don't see how it could have happened with the divisions being set after entries close. You can probably predict that you're going to be small if you're only taking a few, or that you're going to be large if you're taking a lot, but if you're taking somewhere in between, you really don't know. In Indy in 2004, the only time SKY was anything but a small team, we had about the same number of men and women on our team, but our women wound up as a medium team and our men as a large team (could have been the other way around). I don't remember if we were large or medium combined, but I do know that we didn't even place in the top 3 of whichever division we were in (probably large). I've also never heard of a specific example of a team who perpetrated such an act or a swimmer who was victimized. And, as I've said before, we don't even know who's going until the entries close, so how could we discourage people from entering?
Regaridng geographical limits, I agree there should be SOMETHING. I agree that a specific radius would not work for various reasons. But, I believe it was Leianne who mentioned that 90% (for example) of a team's registered members should live within the LMSC. I think that is completely appropriate.
Huh? I betcha 99% of SKY's members live in the Kentucky LMSC. So now you're saying we're a local/club team after all? The issue is not that you live in the LMSC, but whether you live in close proximity to the club you're competing for.
As far as Team TYR. Their members can actually switch teams from 1 meet to another. I've always been confused as to how this happens, and what their USMS cards look like (maybe Julie Heather could answer?), but I know that one of their swimmers switched from Team TYR to SCAQ to TYR to SCAQ within 2 months of meets last year. How does that work?
In theory, you could compete for six clubs in one year. You have to wait 60 days after competing for one club before you can compete for another. You can still compete during those 60 days, but you have to compete unattached.
I don't think it's too productive to get all worked up about Team TYR. Didn't they come together strictly for Worlds? Which was a meet without team scoring, so who cares?
Finally, I agree with Meg in that there needs to be some leeway for "reasonable" judgment calls in determining when a team should fall into 1 of the 2 categories. As was evidenced, there are so many kinds of teams and workout groups, we need to allow for someone to employ the "we know it when we see it" perspective, and let the team challenge the ruling if they don't like it.
Woo hoo! Someone agrees with me about something!
But, I like like the guidelines you are all coming up with, as long as there's that element of freedom for whoever is making that determination. And also, and the end of the day, if Team TYR ends up being a Local/Club team, then like Barry Bonds, everyone will know how to read those final results.*
You had me on your side until your * comment. The TYR folks are all really nice guys, I promise!
