Stroke Rate & Stroke Length in OW

i think its important to have a range of SR's and breathing patterns at ones disposal to be able to establish peace with adverse conditions. sometimes i slow it down, sometimes i speed it up. I think this is the conclusion I'm coming to. I originally began exploring this to see if there was anything I could do to speed up my long distance pace for 3K to 5K swims. For the last two years, I've stagnated at a 1:27 to 1:30 (depending on my conditioning) per 100 yard pace at 15 SPL. I came across the video at the top of the thread and noted that it wasn't only OWS that have the shorter, choppier stroke. Some well known distance pool swimmers (Janet Evans) have the same stroke. So I decided to try to see if I could adapt my stroke. I tried the golf exercise this past weekend. It took a lot of effort for me to fit in more than 17 SPL. While my physical effort felt very similar at both 15 SPL and 17 SPL, the 17 SPL 50's were much faster. However, I found I can't sustain 17 SPL at higher stroke rate for longer than 200 yards. I believe much of the reason for this is my failure to find a new breathing rhythm at 17 SPL. I have decided to table my experiment until I can get in a 50m pool so I'm not having to factor in newly awkward turns as well. 25y may be too short a distance for me to experiment. I can't find a stroke or breathing rhythm before it's time for a turn. I do think I will continue to work on a "second" stroke for use in some OWS. There is 2.4 miler I've done that involves 1.2 miles of up river swimming. My usual 15 SPL didn't seem very effective up river on that one. Maybe a shorter stroke will help me maintain forward momentum. As for speeding up my distance pace, I may have to keep looking for other ideas.

i find that i have to slow things down to learn something new. the lesson is 2 parts. part 1 increase distance per stroke (one must usually slow down to do this) part 2 maintain distance per stroke while increasing SRI This is more or less what I have spend the last 13 months doing. I decided I was going to increase DPS and committed to swimming lmost every lap at 12 LPS in 25 yards and 14 in 25 meters. I only bothered with speed once or twice per week. I think it worked well because at races I reverted my focus back to rate, not DPS. Yes, you have to find the right combination of DPS and Rate to attain maximum speed, you also have to find the right combination of working on it at practice. Here is the article I referenced: www.trifuel.com/.../cycling-cadence-and-pedaling-economy

My question would be, are you really holding your physical effort constant between 15 & 17 SPL? If you're getting tired sooner, it would seem to indicate that you're expending more energy. When I try to increase SR (keeping effort constant), I'm consciously trying to pull less water - letting my catch slide a bit, and perhaps not following through as far. Chaos has described this in a different thread as a "lighter touch." To take that even further, the ideal place to experiment is in actual open water - preferably rough water. To me, having to deal with chop and navigation is where the higher SR really shines. I can't practice a "rough water stroke" in a 25-yard pool, either - it just doesn't feel right. I think this is where I'm headed. My lack of efficiency at 17 SPL in a 25 yard pool is due to lack of breath exchange efficiency rather than my arms and body expending more energy. When I hit my forever pace at any stroke rate, I do so because I've found a natural breathing rhythm. When I drilled at higher stroke rate in pool, I couldn't find that rhythm. It will take time.

Correlations on tightly grouped data are not obvious and sometimes don't show up. Kevin that's a great point, and one that I appreciate as a data nerd. Again I'll refer to the idea of "low hanging fruit." For somebody swimming 27 SPL, their time is probably best spent figuring out how to get below 20. For somebody already below 15 SPL, there may be gains to be found on the SR side of the equation (usually, through increasing strength and fitness). The latter point is, I believe, somewhat underappreciated in some circles. My lack of efficiency at 17 SPL in a 25 yard pool is due to lack of breath exchange efficiency rather than my arms and body expending more energy. Without having seen your stroke, my best guess is that you may be rotating your head too far while breathing? Try rotating just far enough to breathe out of one side of your mouth, and this might help speed up the breath exchange. Another thing to try is swimming with a snorkel... this removes the head-rotation element and you may not have the same issues raising SR.

Without having seen your stroke, my best guess is that you may be rotating your head too far while breathing? Try rotating just far enough to breathe out of one side of your mouth, and this might help speed up the breath exchange. Another thing to try is swimming with a snorkel... this removes the head-rotation element and you may not have the same issues raising SR. One other thought about the breathing: are you holding your breath? Or put another way, is it possible that as you increase stroke rate, you are not getting enough air out before the next breath? As you increase stroke rate, you are also increasing the number of opportunities for a breath per length. Just as an example, I breathe every stroke. At 13 strokes per length, that means I'm getting 7 breaths a length more or less. If I increase my rate to 15 spl, I'm now getting 8. Now add into that the speed that comes with the increased stroke rate. For me, I am faster at 15 spl than I am at 13. That means that not only am I taking more breaths per length, they are coming a lot closer together in time. Thus, if I did that 13 spl 25 yards in 20 seconds, I'd be taking a breath every 2.85 or so seconds. If I did the 15 spl 25 yards in 17 seconds, that goes down to 2.1 seconds. Ok, I know that's not exact because of walls, etc. But the point is that if you are holding your breath at all, or if you are accustomed to slowly exhaling (in keeping with the rhythm of the slower stroke rate) you may not be getting enough air out in time to take a good next breath. Not sure if that helps you, but thought I'd mention it as a possibility.

One other thought about the breathing: are you holding your breath? Or put another way, is it possible that as you increase stroke rate, you are not getting enough air out before the next breath? You nailed it. My usual breathing pattern is 2R/2L without much head turn. 1. When I concentrate on stroke changes or drills that differ from my usual stroke, I forget to breathe and hold my breath. As the drill or stroke becomes more familiar within the set I'll eventually remember to breathe. 2. I got past #1 in this drill, but by quickening my stroke rate, I wasn't exhaling enough before my next breath. For a faster stroke rate I might have to BE3 or something. I just need to find the breathing rhythm that allows me to make the most of each inhale and exhale. While even the video I posted to start this thread clearly makes the point that different strokes work for different people, I'm trying to find if there are elements of my stroke on which I can focus for improvement in speeding up my long distance pace. So far, just by drilling a shorter, choppier stroke, I have removed some of the glide from my usual stroke which can resemble an almost catch-up drill. Before now, I had not considered maintaining momentum as part of stroke efficiency. I am still trying to find my potential. I thoroughly enjoy swimming in open water events and will continue to do so even if my distance pace never breaks 1:25/100 yards. But it would be fun to go faster if I can.

during long OW swims, i will often change pace frequently for stretches, an example: 16 long strokes breathing only one side or the other (consider each hand strike an eighth note in rhythmic terms, or each breath a quarter note), then go right into 16 beats of eighth note triplets.. breathing every three strokes. repeat this sequence switching the side you breathe on during the eighth notes. my goal is to try and hold the same speed throughout. it is challenging on both ends. during the long strokes, i haver to maintain maximum purchase and a strong 2 beat kick, on the triplets, the turn over is fast and lighter... easy to get too light. this practice works well if i am swimming right alongside someone and can monitor my speed based on their steady pace. have fun with it. Thanks for this. I think I'll try as soon as I can get in some LC or open water swimming and find those rhythms.

I don't know that there's an accepted conversion of SCY to LCM for SPL (depends on your turns). If your SCY base is 13-14, then 44-46 for LCM seems high. But if your base is 17, maybe not. Personally, my conversion from 14 is about 38-39. I have no idea if there is a conversion factor either, but I got to 40 strokes and was still nowhere near the end! Like I said, I could feel myself shortening my stroke, keeping myself higher in the water for some reason. Hopefully I can swim LC again tomorrow, thunderstorms permitting, and see how my warm-up goes when I'm not in a "OMG this feels soooo different, help where's the end of the pool? and there's no lifeguard on duty" semi-panic.

during long OW swims, i will often change pace frequently for stretches, an example... Interesting stuff. Is this in response to conditions? To spread the burden on your shoulders? To alleviate boredom? OWS does have a musical quality to it... I also noticed yesterday when I swam long course (for the first time in years) that my SR went through the roof at 44 - 46 per length. I don't know that there's an accepted conversion of SCY to LCM for SPL (depends on your turns). If your SCY base is 13-14, then 44-46 for LCM seems high. But if your base is 17, maybe not. Personally, my conversion from 14 is about 38-39.

1. When I concentrate on stroke changes or drills that differ from my usual stroke, I forget to breathe and hold my breath. As the drill or stroke becomes more familiar within the set I'll eventually remember to breathe. during long OW swims, i will often change pace frequently for stretches, an example: 16 long strokes breathing only one side or the other (consider each hand strike an eighth note in rhythmic terms, or each breath a quarter note), then go right into 16 beats of eighth note triplets.. breathing every three strokes. repeat this sequence switching the side you breathe on during the eighth notes. my goal is to try and hold the same speed throughout. it is challenging on both ends. during the long strokes, i haver to maintain maximum purchase and a strong 2 beat kick, on the triplets, the turn over is fast and lighter... easy to get too light. this practice works well if i am swimming right alongside someone and can monitor my speed based on their steady pace. have fun with it.