Stroke Rate & Stroke Length in OW

OK. So I just adjusted my workout today to focus on seeing if I could hold a shorter stroke with a faster turnover. My workout was mostly sets of 100's and 200's. I found that if I swam 100's on a 1:30 interval targeting 1:20, I could sustain this type of set much longer with a shorter stroke and faster turnover. Unfortunatley, I also found out that I could NOT finish a 300 with shorter stroke and faster turnover. I had lactic burning in my arms (I almost never feel that unless I'm doing a lot of sprinting). I couldn't seem to find a forever pace. Maybe it's just so foreign to my usual much longer stroke that it is still screwing with my breathing rhythm. So at a distance of 100 yards, I don't quite feel the fatigue and the 10 seconds rest allows me to catch up. I'm still wondering if I should continue this experiment.

they were doing a set of 5x 200 on 2:30. the leaders of 2 adjacent lanes were both holding 1:43's... one at 16 SPL, one at 9 SPL. ... what does this have to do with OW? nothing Here's a hypothetical question: Of the two guys holding 1:43s, which one would be better in open water? (Assuming similar navigational IQ, psychological make-up, etc.) My bet is on the guy doing 16 SPL. How do I know? I don't. It's just that - for whatever reason - the best open water swimmers seem to have higher SR's than the best pool distance swimmers. Correlation isn't causation - but it is what it is. When Grant Hackett went 14:34, he was holding 75 SPM. In the 2000 Olympics, the average SR for the top 8 men in the 1500 was 82 SPM (Salo & Riewald, Appendix A). What about the 400 Free? 84 SPM. And then there's open water. Here's a video of the 2010 USA-S 10K Nationals: YouTube - Tactics & Techniques of Elite Open Water Swimmers I measured the SR's of 5 or 6 different guys, and I couldn't find a single one under 80 SPM - in the middle of a 10K. Indeed, many were substantially higher. The end of the video shows the final 100m, when Fran Crippen out-touches Chip Peterson. Chip was stroking at about 92 SPM, and Fran at certain points was over 100 SPM. After 9,900m of swimming. My pet theory (as you know) is that higher SR's have an advantage in those types of races because they're able to maintain more consistent velocity when knocked off balance by choppy water and/or other swimmers in close proximity. The scrum of an open-water peloton (especially during starts and around turn buoys) is not the place for a leisurely SR. Also, I find I can sight more efficiently with a higher SR. It's less disruptive to the flow of my stroke. Am I saying any given random Masters swimmer should try to increase their SR to become better in open water? Not at all. P.S., I guess I'm a little sensitive on this issue because I recently had a TI coach encourage me to be more "patient" with my catch - to do more of a catch-up style stroke, even if it lowered my SR. I experimented this for a while - and it made me slower. I think it was bad advice - and he knew I'm primarily an open water swimmer. I wonder if Paul Newsome would given the same advice?

Paul begins with the observation that any given heat of elite pool freestylers will have sometimes wildly divergent styles - not all of which are the classic "long, smooth" form taught in books, articles, and videos (which Paul diplomatically doesn't name). He points to Laure Manaudou and Janet Evans as particularly striking examples. i had the pleasure of watching the distance guys at UT a couple of years ago... they were doing a set of 5x 200 on 2:30. the leaders of 2 adjacent lanes were both holding 1:43's... one at 16 SPL, one at 9 SPL. at 16 SPL: very impressive. at 9 SPL; mind blowing (at least to me). what does this have to do with OW? nothing

To maintain 16 SPL at any kind of speed requires a very powerful kick, or a 6' 8" body and a 7' wingspan

I'm still wondering if I should continue this experiment. golf is a good experiment: repeat 50's on x interval establish a comfortable avg time reduce SPL until you can no longer hold time as above. now experiment with adding strokes without increasing time. does this feel easier? better able to sustain over long periods? these are questions you have to answer for yourself. now, add all the OW variables.... chop, waves, current, sighting, etc. i know i vary my SR and breathing pattern to adjust to the moment though i have watched some very impressive performances where the swimmer held steady through quite varied conditions. you have to work with what you have. me? i never had a high SR... and i'm not that fast.

To maintain 16 SPL at any kind of speed requires a very powerful kick, or a 6' 8" body and a 7' wingspan I think you have this backwards. 16 strokes per lap is very short, not long. I read this article on Lance Armstrong. His pedal rate into strong winds is in excess of 110. He gears down and pedals really fast. His rivals do the opposite. They slow their rate down and pedal harder. The writers explanation is that Lance' stregnth was his Vo2 Max while others strength was their leg power. The translation to swimming is obvious. This possibly explains why Triathletes have higher stroke rates than "true" swimmers. Anyone notice that people are swimming on the left side of the lane in that video?

I think you have this backwards. 16 strokes per lap is very short, not long. You're right. I quoted the wrong SPL number. I read this article on Lance Armstrong. His pedal rate into strong winds is in excess of 110. He gears down and pedals really fast. His rivals do the opposite. They slow their rate down and pedal harder. The writers explanation is that Lance' stregnth was his Vo2 Max while others strength was their leg power. I agree. Compare Lance to Ullrich, who some refer to as riding like he has a diesel engine. Diesel engines have relatively high torque and reach there peak HP at relatively low RPMs. Compare that to a normally aspirated Honda engine. Low torque numbers, and reaches its top HP at high RPMS

mine in boldHere's a hypothetical question: Of the two guys holding 1:43s, which one would be better in open water? (Assuming similar navigational IQ, psychological make-up, etc.) My bet is on the guy doing 16 SPL. don't know... but the 9spl guy was in the olympics the other was notHow do I know? I don't. It's just that - for whatever reason - the best open water swimmers seem to have higher SR's than the best pool distance swimmers. Correlation isn't causation - but it is what it is. When Grant Hackett went 14:34, he was holding 75 SPM. In the 2000 Olympics, the average SR for the top 8 men in the 1500 was 82 SPM (Salo & Riewald, Appendix A). What about the 400 Free? 84 SPM. And then there's open water. Here's a video of the 2010 USA-S 10K Nationals: YouTube - Tactics & Techniques of Elite Open Water Swimmers I measured the SR's of 5 or 6 different guys, and I couldn't find a single one under 80 SPM - in the middle of a 10K. Indeed, many were substantially higher. The end of the video shows the final 100m, when Fran Crippen out-touches Chip Peterson. Chip was stroking at about 92 SPM, and Fran at certain points was over 100 SPM. After 9,900m of swimming.SR being =, the higher stroke length wins My pet theory (as you know) is that higher SR's have an advantage in those types of races because they're able to maintain more consistent velocity when knocked off balance by choppy water and/or other swimmers in close proximity. The scrum of an open-water peloton (especially during starts and around turn buoys) is not the place for a leisurely SR. Also, I find I can sight more efficiently with a higher SR. It's less disruptive to the flow of my stroke. Am I saying any given random Masters swimmer should try to increase their SR to become better in open water? Not at all. P.S., I guess I'm a little sensitive on this issue because I recently had a TI coach encourage me to be more "patient" with my catch - to do more of a catch-up style stroke, even if it lowered my SR. i find that i have to slow things down to learn something new. the lesson is 2 parts. part 1 increase distance per stroke (one must usually slow down to do this) part 2 maintain distance per stroke while increasing SRI experimented this for a while - and it made me slower. I think it was bad advice - and he knew I'm primarily an open water swimmer. I wonder if Paul Newsome would given the same advice?i think paul would agree that there are only 2 ways to get faster; increase SR while maintaining DPS of increase DPS while maintaining SR

Brilliant video - though it's nearly 6 minutes long so I'll summarize: Paul begins with the observation that any given heat of elite pool freestylers will have sometimes wildly divergent styles - not all of which are the classic "long, smooth" form taught in books, articles, and videos (which Paul diplomatically doesn't name). He points to Laure Manaudou and Janet Evans as particularly striking examples. Further, open water swimmers and elite triathletes "seem to be a lot more choppy, punchy, and with a much higher stroke rate" than their pool counterparts. The "choppy, punchy, high SR" style - despite seemingly breaking all the rules of - is by definition efficient for these swimmers, because they are competing (and often winning) at the highest level of the sport. Therefore, he says, "Efficiency in the water cannot be measured by the number of strokes you take per length, by itself. That would be a gross oversimplification of the freestyle stroke." Personally, I use a higher SR in open water than I do in distance pool races, and I think it works for me. As a counterpoint - and, I think, much less compelling argument - see this: www.totalimmersion.net/.../The-Open-Water-Stroke.html

The broader point here is that the stroke rate, length, and style that is most efficient for you may or may not be what is efficient for someone else. And regarding OW vs. pool - a naturally "punchier" style may be one correlate of a swimmer excelling in OW relative to the pool.