Stroke Rate & Stroke Length in OW

Terry, thanks for the comments. Interesting stuff about your training methods; sounds like you make the most of your 3,000-yard workouts. That said, the aim of my recent comments on this thread has been to try to understand: Why is it that elite open water swimmers race with higher SRs than elite pool distance swimmers, despite their main event being almost 7x as long? Again, please see the videos I linked to, and the stroke rate measurements from three different elite 10Ks (including the Olympics). I think it's an interesting phenomenon. And it leads to further questions: If the elites are doing it, does it follow that there may be advantages to swimming with a (relatively) high SR in open water? If so, what are these advantages, specifically? To what extent can the rest of us (as non-elite OW swimmers) learn from this? You wrote earlier that "It's interesting info to me that 25 y.o. highly trained elite athletes swim with tempos ranging from 75 to 87 or more" - which implied that you were unaware of this phenomenon until now. You're the founder of a successful swim-teaching business and represent yourself as an expert on open water swimming. So I'm surprised you're not more interested in these questions. Don't they arouse your "passionate curiosity"? When you point out that Grant Hackett held a rate of .7 sec/stroke in setting the 1500 world record, I think you miss the point. ... Hackett broke the WR because he took 31 SPL at that rate, while others were taking 32 to 36 SPL to travel 50 meters. Swimming slower than him despite stroking at even higher rates. And when you compare Grant Hackett to other swimmers in his heat, you miss my point. I was comparing Hackett (a pool swimmer) to elite OW swimmers, and noting that his SR is substantially lower. I didn't write that your stroke should be 'even longer and even slower' in OW.... I wrote that cultivating the most leisurely stroke that works for you in any set of conditions is critical to OW success. It's true; you didn't write the exact words, "even longer and even slower" - but it was a not-unreasonable interpretation of your meaning. Here's what you wrote, specifically, in the article: "LCM swimmers had longer, slower strokes" . Then, you said: "I instantly recognized that what was true for 50-meter pools would become hugely compelling in open water." Also, I notice that the words "cultivating the most leisurely stroke that works for you in any set of conditions" do not appear anywhere in that article (or really, even the concept). You may have written more elsewhere, but the "Open Water Stroke" article is what I was reacting to. I'd also add that the Olympic 10K was held in a man-made rowing basin. The conditions were about as neutral as they get in OWS. Yet still, the top women and men were humming along in the high-80s to mid-90s -- in the middle of a 2-hour race! So, a full discussion of the "Open Water Stroke" should probably account for not only conditions, but also the effect of navigation/sighting, drafting, race tactics, other swimmers nearby, etc. Some beautiful video of Keri-Anne Payne YouTube - Keri-Anne Payne's top swimming tips. ... Keri-Anne would make a great model for anyone wanting to swim TI style Keri-Anne does have beautiful technique. She's also swimming in a pool, at 50 SPM. In the Olympic 10K, the lowest SR I observed for her was 88 SPM. Check out the video I posted and tell me if you still think her stroke is TI-style. She seems to make a lot of un-TI-like splashes with her arm recovery. (To be clear, I think her OW stroke is great. I just don't think it's a TI stroke.) I'd also point out that she was beaten in the last 100m by someone going 104 SPM. On an unrelated note, I'm not sure I understand her tip about a longer stroke in windy conditions being "aerodynamic." I swim in windy conditions all the time in Lake Michigan, and honestly my "aerodynamics" had never occurred to me as an issue. Maybe if I had sails attached to my arms? The main issue with windy conditions is chop. Cheers, Evan ---- www.freshwaterswimmer.com

Terry, thanks for the comments. Interesting stuff about your training methods; sounds like you make the most of your 3,000-yard workouts. That said, the aim of my recent comments on this thread has been to try to understand: Why is it that elite open water swimmers race with higher SRs than elite pool distance swimmers, despite their main event being almost 7x as long? Again, please see the videos I linked to, and the stroke rate measurements from three different elite 10Ks (including the Olympics). I think it's an interesting phenomenon. And it leads to further questions: If the elites are doing it, does it follow that there may be advantages to swimming with a (relatively) high SR in open water? If so, what are these advantages, specifically? To what extent can the rest of us (as non-elite OW swimmers) learn from this? You wrote earlier that "It's interesting info to me that 25 y.o. highly trained elite athletes swim with tempos ranging from 75 to 87 or more" - which implied that you were unaware of this phenomenon until now. You're the founder of a successful swim-teaching business and represent yourself as an expert on open water swimming. So I'm surprised you're not more interested in these questions. Don't they arouse your "passionate curiosity"? When you point out that Grant Hackett held a rate of .7 sec/stroke in setting the 1500 world record, I think you miss the point. ... Hackett broke the WR because he took 31 SPL at that rate, while others were taking 32 to 36 SPL to travel 50 meters. Swimming slower than him despite stroking at even higher rates. And when you compare Grant Hackett to other swimmers in his heat, you miss my point. I was comparing Hackett (a pool swimmer) to elite OW swimmers, and noting that his SR is substantially lower. I didn't write that your stroke should be 'even longer and even slower' in OW.... I wrote that cultivating the most leisurely stroke that works for you in any set of conditions is critical to OW success. It's true; you didn't write the exact words, "even longer and even slower" - but it was a not-unreasonable interpretation of your meaning. Here's what you wrote, specifically, in the article: "LCM swimmers had longer, slower strokes" . Then, you said: "I instantly recognized that what was true for 50-meter pools would become hugely compelling in open water." Also, I notice that the words "cultivating the most leisurely stroke that works for you in any set of conditions" do not appear anywhere in that article (or really, even the concept). You may have written more elsewhere, but the "Open Water Stroke" article is what I was reacting to. I'd also add that the Olympic 10K was held in a man-made rowing basin. The conditions were about as neutral as they get in OWS. Yet still, the top women and men were humming along in the high-80s to mid-90s -- in the middle of a 2-hour race! So, a full discussion of the "Open Water Stroke" should probably account for not only conditions, but also the effect of navigation/sighting, drafting, race tactics, other swimmers nearby, etc. Some beautiful video of Keri-Anne Payne YouTube - Keri-Anne Payne's top swimming tips. ... Keri-Anne would make a great model for anyone wanting to swim TI style Keri-Anne does have beautiful technique. She's also swimming in a pool, at 50 SPM. In the Olympic 10K, the lowest SR I observed for her was 88 SPM. Check out the video I posted and tell me if you still think her stroke is TI-style. She seems to make a lot of un-TI-like splashes with her arm recovery. (To be clear, I think her OW stroke is great. I just don't think it's a TI stroke.) I'd also point out that she was beaten in the last 100m by someone going 104 SPM. On an unrelated note, I'm not sure I understand her tip about a longer stroke in windy conditions being "aerodynamic." I swim in windy conditions all the time in Lake Michigan, and honestly my "aerodynamics" had never occurred to me as an issue. Maybe if I had sails attached to my arms? The main issue with windy conditions is chop. Cheers, Evan ---- www.freshwaterswimmer.com