I'm new to distance open water swimming and have been trying to figure out what the deal is between the Channel Swimming Association and the Channel Swimmer & Pilot Federation. What gives??
The Channel Swimming Association is the long time Channel Swimming Authority(starting in the 1800's). Nears as I can tell, (as told to me by a member of the CSA) the CS&PF was started with a rift occurred between board members of the CSA and one or two left to start the CS&PF. They both perform basically the same function, and the primary difference between them (when I last checked two years ago) was that the CS&PF fee was less. They both have a list of approved boaters, both send observers. The CSA is very strict on apparel, assistance ect. The CS&PF did loose a swimmer who eventually drowned a few years ago, and I believe they allow wetsuits, kayaks, and they have the crossing record set by one of their swimmers with a course that to see it is not to believe it, which some would say puts a ? mark by their results. When my daughter swam the Channel in 2008, we chose the CSA, even with the higher fee, we felt the first, oldest, most respected organization was the way to go for us. I could see how someone would go CS&PF, and I would not look down on their accomplishment any way shape or form based on which organization they swam for.
Fred Martle, and he was the greatest! (I hear that from everyone about their pilot) I will tell you that Fred knows the deal, did a great job of guiding us thru the busy section of ships, and a real old sea dog to boot. The local kids call Fred "grandad" I asked him about that and he said, "heck no! have you ever seen their grandma?"
The Channel Swimming Association is the long time Channel Swimming Authority(starting in the 1800's). Nears as I can tell, (as told to me by a member of the CSA) the CS&PF was started with a rift occurred between board members of the CSA and one or two left to start the CS&PF. They both perform basically the same function, and the primary difference between them (when I last checked two years ago) was that the CS&PF fee was less. They both have a list of approved boaters, both send observers. The CSA is very strict on apparel, assistance ect. The CS&PF did loose a swimmer who eventually drowned a few years ago, and I believe they allow wetsuits, kayaks, and they have the crossing record set by one of their swimmers with a course that to see it is not to believe it, which some would say puts a ? mark by their results. When my daughter swam the Channel in 2008, we chose the CSA, even with the higher fee, we felt the first, oldest, most respected organization was the way to go for us. I could see how someone would go CS&PF, and I would not look down on their accomplishment any way shape or form based on which organization they swam for.
i don't think all the information in this post is accurate.... wetsuits? kayaks?
lost swimmer? questionable results?
you should check your sources before posting this stuff on a public forum.
i don't think all the information in this post is accurate.... wetsuits? kayaks?
lost swimmer? questionable results?
you should check your sources before posting this stuff on a public forum.
Dave
It was a good idea to solicit some info from a source with direct knowlege
To clarify things, the decision to establish the Channel Swimming Association was made in December 1926 by several luminaries of the British swimming community. Since March 1927, swims in the English Channel have been regulated and officially observed by its designated officials.
Both the Channel Swimming Association and the Channel Swimming & Piloting Federation (CS&PF) are fully recognized by British and French government authorities to properly, professionally and safely organize and assist in solo and relay swims.
If you are in doubt of the incredible speed and endurance of the world's best marathon swimmers who have crossed the English Channel under CS&PF jurisdiction, I think you may be surprised by their training methodologies and level of commitment. These athletes spend decades training at least 8,000 meters per day and often get up to 80,000 - 110,000 meters per week during their concentrated training cycles.
There is no doubt in my mind that these all-time top 10 athletes (refer here: www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com/.../english-channel-world-record-still.html) successfuly swam the English Channel strictly following traditional rules that have been in place since the 1920's.
The story of Petar Stoychev's record-setting day in the English Channel under CS&PF rules is fascinating and can be referenced here: www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com/.../teaming-up-to-break-english-channel.html, 10kswim.blogspot.com/.../day-english-channel-record-was-set.html and www.dailynewsofopenwaterswimming.com/.../yuri-kudinov-marathon-swimming-hall-of.html.
I expect others will contribute additional comments on the original post.
Didnt mean to be controversial, I do believe that some attempts have been made to swim with a wetsuit,people did timed crossings in kayaks, I did not presume they passed them off as anything they were not...if that makes sense. But they did oversee those type attempts, just something that the CSA does not do. As for the swim in question, here is the link to the chart www.dover.uk.com/.../ I only point out that with the tide as it is to swim that straight across is incredible. He managed to swim to from the closest point to the cloest point, in a direct line. Most swim start our direct line straight East, then almost 90 degree right angle, as you swim straight ahead but drop down faster than going east. adding many more miles to the swim... I only meant that during my time in Dover it was a topic of discussion, and I didnt start it, hats off to Petar, hell of a swim. Note: I said I would never doubt anyone with CS&PF certification. As for the drowning, I couldnt find the exact link, but offer the following from the Dover Crossing website under fatalities: Ueli Staub - 11 August 2001
Swiss swimmer Ueli Staub, 37, disappeared from view when he was about a mile off the French coast having swum for 16 hours from Dover. His body was found six days later, in the sea near Ostende. " He was a CS&PF escorted swimmer, could have possible happened to any one, when this happened it did cause a stir as to clarify who has the say as to go or to stop, swimmer, pilot, or observer. Ueli was lost in a hugh swell, where he basically disappeared from sight of the boat. I did not make up any of the facts in my post...should have let someone who "knows" answer the question. but the answer remains the same, they are both organizations that oversee/certify English channel swim attempts. AS I SAID not much difference between them. mainly the fee structure, maybe they are the same there as well. Some of the founding members of CS&PF are former board members of the CSA. that is true as well. Based on the heated response, it must be a touchy subject....didnt know that....sorry.
In 2008 if you owned a kayak, wanted to get an official timed crossing. you could go thru CS&PF to get it certified. Same if you wore a wetsuit, you could get an "official" time. hope this helps.
When I booked my crossing attempt (originally 2012, now 2013) I heard positive things about particular pilots of both organizations. I never heard anything bad about a pilot, but I had some uncertainty about a CS&PF pilot. A number of pilots (both organizations) did not reply to my inquiries. I narrowed it to one pilot from each organization. I then pulled out a letter I have from 1983 from the CSA regarding my request to get info on crossing the channel. My choice was clear: CSA.
This from Nick Adams:
Good Morning All,
I rarely post on the Channel group, but feel I ought to now before people with far stronger opinions and less diplomacy wake up, read the emails, and write something that will prolong and enflame this discussion.
I am not new to Channel Swimming, this being my 19th season. I did my first few swims under the CSA banner with the wonderful Ray and Audrey Scott running the show. I have been around through a few changes of leadership and witnessed the creation of the CS&PF. I have done plenty of swims with the CS&PF. Earlier this year I was elected as President of the CS&PF, and I am very proud to be involved with the CS&PF and to serve the organisation and sport in anyway that I can. I have got a lot out of the sport, and want to give back whenever I can.
I am writing this email as both a swimmer and the CS&PF President.
This whole debate should not waste any more of our time, we should be focussed on our swims and helping each other.
* There have been deaths during swims with both organisations. This is a horrible area to try and score points between organisations.
* Both organisations will keep you safe during your Channel swim.
* The kit allowed, and rules to be followed, are almost identical with both organisations.
* The fee structures are different, it's your call which one to go with.
* The CS&PF recognise CSA and CS&PF swims. The CSA just recognise their own. Rest assured, nobody will try to claim you didn't swim the Channel if you successfully crossed with the CS&PF; that's scaremongering.
* Currently, around 75% of swims each year are done under the CS&PF banner.
* This sport is full of good people, but the odd bad apple can get into any cart.
* The majority of those that help you on the beach in Dover are part of the CS&PF, but the Dover training is not connected in anyway with either the CSA or CS&PF.
* I will help ANY swimmer that gets in touch with me. I don't charge for advice or meeting up, and that is the same with many of my closest friends in the CS&PF. I don't know many of the 'inner-circle" (for want of a better phrase) of the CSA, but suspect they too are quick to help and dispense free advice and expertise.
As Nemo says: "Just keep swimming.." There are two organisations; pick one and just get on with it!
It is not fair for me to put my views onto the group without giving a CSA representative the right to reply, so I have cc'd Julie Bradshaw and I will post any reply she sends me.
Big love to all,
Nick
