Big Shoulders 2009

I don't really think this adds much evidence. I would guess I also passed hundreds of swimmers--especially when you throw in the 2.5K swimmers--and I don't think this slowed me down more than a few seconds. Also, Andy was so much faster than anyone else he wouldn't have been able to draft regardless of what wave he was in. He beat the second place guy by 1:32 and third place by 2:25. He was gaining 1.84 seconds and 2.90 seconds on the second and third place finishers every 100 meters!

I posted earlier that I thought all the safety personnel were positioned on the outside of the course. I probably shouldn't have said that because I don't know this for sure. I always breathe to the right and since the course is swum CCW I'm always looking toward the outside of the course. edit: found a race photo on bigshoulder.org that shows a pretty good view of the course: www.bigshoulders.org/.../dsc03163.html You can see on the right side the round, mid-leg buoy and further on the triangular buoy marking the turn between the first and second leg. I see a couple boats positioned along the first leg and I think the lifeguards in these boats would definitely see if someone cut the course. What I don't know is whether the lifeguards are purely there for safety or are also marshalling the course. As my previous post stated, no one should be DQ'd by a lifeguard or what a fellow competitor observed. However reviewing the post from Race Director, Chris; nothing was stated on who, what or where the official race referee’s were posted or even if there were official course marshals with the power to disqualify a swimmer. Furthermore based on the photos submitted Knelson I see boats outside of the markers not inside where they would need to be located to accurately observe and record a swimmer miss a buoy. Who the race referees were if any and there location seems to be less then transparent in this race is my mind a serious issue for a National Championship event. Based on the hullabaloo here, officiating of OW needs to be addressed by USMS for future open water National Championships in both bids submitted and OW rules.

itritoo - I apologize, I misinterpreted your post, my bad. I suggest you discuss your channel swim with our newly minted Channel Swimmer, chaos. He would be one heck of a resource for your quest. Chaos - in the event you read this, I am reminded I need to ask our coach to put together a sprint workout for you when you visit with us. That may partially even the odds of keeping up with you.

. edit: found a race photo on bigshoulder.org that shows a pretty good view of the course: www.bigshoulders.org/.../dsc03163.html What is wrong in this picture. (dsc03165.htm) I hope we have a violation of the one suit rule here!

However I do quality assurance/compliance (yea I’m that guy) for a living. :bitching: Accept no substitutes! :bitching: oddly, my line of work is very similar

It's addressed. (Give the rules people and the bid-evaluation people at least a little credit.) Rule 303.7 requires referees for all USMS-sanctioned OW events. For events designated as National Championships, Rule 305.7.3.B specifically requires a turn judge. Big Shoulders has been an OW National Championship more than once in the last ten years; there's no reason to doubt that the race director knows these rules. I apologize for not reviewing the rule book prior to posting. However I do quality assurance/compliance (yea I’m that guy) for a living. Tenure and experience certainly help in a quality event however they are not guarantees that all will be perfect and nothing was overlooked. I’m curious who the turn judges were? How were they posted? What tools such as video cameras/binoculars did they have? Were they dual purpose safety and turn judge or were they dedicated as a turn judge only? What certified them or how were they selected to be a turn judge? What was the procedure to report a DQ? Did they receive any kind of training?

So his "history" shows that he is one of the faster distance swimmers in his age group, at less than ideal conditions. As Tom pointed out, Andy had the perfect storm for this race: 1) Great practices for the past year 2) Healthy up to and through the event 3) Deliberately peaked for this particular race 4) Ideal race - straight lines, racers from previous heats to "sling-shot" from 5) Blue70 doesn't hurt either If it sounds like I am defending him, it's because I know the guy. From practice, he is an endurance machine (when not injured). As a person, winning the race doesn't mean enough that he would think about cheating. His interest would be to see what he could do, what he is capable of when at 100%. There have been a number of accusations/theories regarding what happened on race day with little hard evidence to substantiate claims made on either side. While the race director reaffirmed that the time in question was correct I ask him to consider the following additional evidence. This, I believe, provides further support to the accusations of cutting the course short: The swimmer in question started in wave 3 which took place 10 minutes after the first wave. After looking at the results, I have concluded that at the very least he would have had to pass 189 5k swimmers from heats 1 & 2 in order to clock in a time of 56:21 (1:06:21 adjusted). This figure is simply obtained by adjusting for the staggered starts and producing a list of finishing order. I haven’t taken in account how many others swimmers (i.e. 2.5K) he or the top ten leaders from heat 1 may have passed along the way but I have to believe that he passed considerably more swimmers… One has to question how someone could pass that many swimmers while clocking such an incredible time. No one could say that he had an advantage by having more drafting or so-called “sling-shot?” opportunities while having to navigate and pass that many slower swimmers- it’s an absurd argument to say the least! The cluster of strong swimmers in the lead pack had the greatest advantage; benefiting from the longest stretch of unobstructed water, straightest line, and the benefit of having swimmers that they could “actually” draft off. If I had the time and the advantage of having the results in a spreadsheet to perform a few calculations I’m certain that it would be easier to prove that these results are ridiculous.

I don't really think this adds much evidence. I would guess I also passed hundreds of swimmers--especially when you throw in the 2.5K swimmers--and I don't think this slowed me down more than a few seconds. Also, Andy was so much faster than anyone else he wouldn't have been able to draft regardless of what wave he was in. He beat the second place guy by 1:32 and third place by 2:25. He was gaining 1.84 seconds and 2.90 seconds on the second and third place finishers every 100 meters! One of the points I was trying to make is that Andy wouldn't have been able to benefit from drafting whatsoever. His so-called friends claim that it was one of his keys to his success... Additionally, as a long-time NCAA swimming coach who watched the race, I find it unbelievable that he won... especially considering who was racing in the lead pack and how they approached the course.

Pool swimmers have S&T officials everywhere judging everything. Hence, Chris Stevenson's DQ after setting a WR at Indy Nats. Actually, apparently that DQ was because the judge couldn't believe that I dropped 7 seconds in the event in just over a month (2:19 in late June, 2:12 in early Aug)...:) (I do not mean for this to comment in any way about Andy's swim, I'm content to lurk.)

I find the last post by knelson & pkerch fairly persuasive. 2 seconds per hundred meters is significant. As someone who used to (OK so it was 20 years ago) swim 5000 yards in one hour regularly, I know how hard it is to drop that much time for a hundred and repeat it for an hour. It is probably equivalent to dropping 10 seconds in a 200 (assuming a high level of proficiency to start with). That would be a heck of a swim of a life time. Maybe possible, but race results for the 3 months prior should reflect quicker times even without a taper.