Big Shoulders 2009

The reason I posted these questions is because I am training for the English Channel swim in July 1012. I think you are about a thousand years to late for your channel swim window.

itritoo - I apologize, I misinterpreted your post, my bad. I suggest you discuss your channel swim with our newly minted Channel Swimmer, chaos. He would be one heck of a resource for your quest. Chaos - in the event you read this, I am reminded I need to ask our coach to put together a sprint workout for you when you visit with us. That may partially even the odds of keeping up with you. itritoo, I'd also recommend that you read "Dover Solo" by Marcia Cleveland... it's an indispensable resource for channel swimmers.

I It is time for everyone to realize Andy's results are unattainable. But, as I said in a previous post, if he wants us to believe it is possible for him, then it is time for him to support his extraordinary improvement. Andy, please share your training, competing, nutrition, physical, and mental techniques. He is not on trial here, except in the court of public opinion, and so has no obligation to provide the information. I admit that the result has me scratching my head a bit, but it seems like the race director did his due diligence in conducting the inquiry into this and concluded it was kosher. Since he has the benefit of real information (talking to people, etc), as opposed to our speculation, it stands until some other real evidence may be presented. As to the person who lead the whole way of that wave... interesting, but hardly conclusive as (s)he may be just as wrong as anyone else, people's anecdotal evidence of their own place awareness aside. I would suggest that person present their information to the race director, however, as it might be of use. Same for the "I saw a guy turn early" story. BTW, question for anyone who did this race/knows the course: For the sake of argument, if someone were to turn early in the manner alleged previously, given the course set up, would they run the risk of sticking out like a sore thumb to safety/race personnel? -LBJ

BTW, question for anyone who did this race/knows the course: For the sake of argument, if someone were to turn early in the manner alleged previously, given the course set up, would they run the risk of sticking out like a sore thumb to safety/race personnel? I guess my answer would be that I'm not sure. I have a feeling the view from a boat is quite different than a swimmer's view from the water and being in the water is the only experience I have. However, it seems to me the bulk of the safety personnel are positioned between the first and second buoys (i.e., on the second leg). If someone turned midway in the first leg it's possible they might not even notice this person and even if they did the person might be too far away to identify who the person was. If there were race personnel positioned near the first round buoy where someone allegedly turned then, yes, for sure that person would stick out like a sore thumb, but I don't recall how close to that spot anyone was positioned. I posted earlier that I thought all the safety personnel were positioned on the outside of the course. I probably shouldn't have said that because I don't know this for sure. I always breathe to the right and since the course is swum CCW I'm always looking toward the outside of the course. edit: found a race photo on bigshoulder.org that shows a pretty good view of the course: www.bigshoulders.org/.../dsc03163.html You can see on the right side the round, mid-leg buoy and further on the triangular buoy marking the turn between the first and second leg. I see a couple boats positioned along the first leg and I think the lifeguards in these boats would definitely see if someone cut the course. What I don't know is whether the lifeguards are purely there for safety or are also marshalling the course.

I think the next time someone beats me I will send them a list of 23 obligatory questions. Since most everyone on this forum has beaten me, expect emails soon for you to answer.

Comparing previous times only works if all other factors are the same. I noticed in 2004, Paul Smith had a 7 second improvement in his 200 IM in one month. I could argue that such a result for someone like him is "unattainable", until we consider that his faster time was at Nationals. Peaking for a race, other events in the same day, or any number of other factors need to be considered when comparing times. Since some people seem to have missed my earlier post, Andy's history for most of the last decade is: 1) Having his training interrupted by injury/illness 2) Getting injured or sick right around the combination 3) 1 & 2 So his "history" shows that he is one of the faster distance swimmers in his age group, at less than ideal conditions. As Tom pointed out, Andy had the perfect storm for this race: 1) Great practices for the past year 2) Healthy up to and through the event 3) Deliberately peaked for this particular race 4) Ideal race - straight lines, racers from previous heats to "sling-shot" from 5) Blue70 doesn't hurt either As an anecdote, I was talking to a friend who swam several Big Shoulders (before he started doing Ironman Wisconsin). I told him that Andy managed to get the best time at Big Shoulders, and he blurted out "I believe it" before I could mention the discussion board controversy. If it sounds like I am defending him, it's because I know the guy. From practice, he is an endurance machine (when not injured). As a person, winning the race doesn't mean enough that he would think about cheating. His interest would be to see what he could do, what he is capable of when at 100%.

Move over Thomas Lurz... While there are several potential problems that I have with what I'm about to present, I thought that I'd do so as a means to demonstrate another reason why I find the contested time to be so unbelievable. I was in Rome this past July/Aug at the FINA 5k World Championships: 2009 FINA WORLDS 5K 1 40 LURZ Thomas GER 56:26.9 18 2 44 GIANNIOTIS Spyridon GRE 56:27.2 0.3 16 3 63 HO Chad RSA 56:41.9 15.0 14 4 52 FERRETTI Luca ITA 56:44.3 17.4 12 5 77 GEMMELL Andrew USA 56:44.9 18.0 10 6 32 BRANDA Loic FRA 56:47.0 20.1 8 7 76 CRIPPEN Francis USA 56:47.1 20.2 6 8 31 NOGUEIRA MONTERO Diego ESP 56:47.2 20.3 5 9 53 RUFFINI Simone ITA 56:47.3 20.4 4 10 30 HERVAS Francisco Jose ESP 56:47.9 21.0 3 10 68 DYATCHIN Vladimir RUS 56:47.9 21.0 3 12 67 DRATTSEV Evgeny RUS 56:48.5 21.6 1 13 3 BEATO Andrew AUS 56:52.4 25.5 14 57 ELORZA Rodrigo MEX 56:55.3 28.4 Andy Seibt's time in Chicago was 56:21 hmmmmm.... Yes, we all know that on many levels this is an unfair comparison but you've got to be kidding me.

Andy Seibt's time in Chicago was 56:21 hmmmmm.... Yes, we all know that on many levels this is an unfair comparison but you've got to be kidding me. Someone I know who swam said the course was short and looked more like 4700-4800 meters. (He is RD for an OW series that includes a 5K). Of course even at that distance his time would be impressive.

Comparing previous times only works if all other factors are the same. I noticed in 2004, Paul Smith had a 7 second improvement in his 200 IM in one month. I was about to write my concession speech (First I would like to thank KNelson who was the first to PM me about this. Make no mistakes folks, it is him, not me who is to blame for all of this) but then I read another post like this, and I just cannot help myself. I'll pretend that this was a serious point made by Mark and point out for objectivity sake that ANdy dropped 18 seconds per 100, not 3.5 like Paul. We all need friends like you, Mark! (if you want to have some fun, think about what kind of times an 18 second drop translates to in your own swimming!)

Chaos - in the event you read this, I am reminded I need to ask our coach to put together a sprint workout for you when you visit with us. That may partially even the odds of keeping up with you. never mind sprints, i am pathetic at anything with a flip turn in it these days.