I see some age groupers getting real good results grabbing the gutter and placing feet a bit lower. They come right out and get clean entries just like the bar grabbers. Is this just a developmental thing, or can Masters benefit? I think the added buoyancy by staying low in the water at the start creates a stronger pushoff and slingshot?
I would also believe that most masters, with a few exceptions, aren't going to benefit from going as deep as lochte or piersol since we don't have the kicking power that they do.
Yeah, I was actually going to mention something like this in my last post. I do think the optimum depth varies from swimmer to swimmer. You certainly don't want to be so deep that you feel like you're expending a lot of effort just to surface rather than to propel you down the pool. Ideally you'll pop to the surface when your underwater kicking speed matches your surface swimming speed, or at 15 meters, whichever comes first!
I prefer doing my backstroke only in events that don't require a backstroke start.
Agreed! Like Alison (Swimshark), my backstroke starts are more like a backflop. :afraid:A previous back and shoulder surgery makes backstroke starts painful. I'll stick with IM's, in addition to breaststroke! :D
Start hands on the gutter, or in the wall when there are electronic pads.
And do not bend my arms, on the 50m meters back 32seconds; it works for me.
To perform a hand block start in order to get a good entry demands a power I do not have and hate to practice . This way I do not splash and keep strength do a almost 12m underwater efficient dolphin kick ….
By this logic the shallowest start would always be the fastest start and I think it's pretty clear this isn't the case primarily because you need to get underwater far enough to avoid wave drag at the surface. Just consider people who push off the wall right on the surface. They go nowhere.
I think Muppet means that his gutter start allows him to go deep enough to avoid the waves created at the surface but not so deep that he at a disadvantage, esp. when racing swimmie.
My start with the backstroke bars stinks. No matter how much I practice, I always seem slow on my underwater kicks off the start. I feel very stiff on them. They get better on the turns but the starts are horrible. I may practice some gutter starts to see if there is any difference for me.
My opinion is one to two feet is not deep enough, and probably not even three feet. If you look at underwater videos of the greats like Lochte and Peirsol they're going a lot deeper than that on the start.
I would take a hunch that when he says 1-2 feet, he is probably deeper than that on the start. I would also believe that most masters, with a few exceptions, aren't going to benefit from going as deep as lochte or piersol since we don't have the kicking power that they do.
I would say the masters that can do that, like Chris or Mike Ross, are the exception rather than the rule. Most are probably better served going a little more shallow on the start and get to the surface sooner.
My backstroke start is my baby -- probably the thing I do best in swimming. Personally, I would never use a gutter start. I'd feel like I was flopping on my back. Much easier to get a cleaner deeper entry from the blocks. YMMV
But Wookiee may be correct in his analysis of what most masters can do. You need a vicious kick if you're 3-4 feet under.
As Kirk pointed out, there benefits to going deeper. You are one of the people that I was thinking of that would be an exception. Your start and underwaters are very strong.
And I should add, just because we don't have the abilities of the elites, doesn't mean we shouldnt work towards improvement. I believe that we should also be honest with ourselves about our abilities.
Yeah, I was actually going to mention something like this in my last post. I do think the optimum depth varies from swimmer to swimmer. You certainly don't want to be so deep that you feel like you're expending a lot of effort just to surface rather than to propel you down the pool. Ideally you'll pop to the surface when your underwater kicking speed matches your surface swimming speed, or at 15 meters, whichever comes first!
Agreed.
I always use the gutter when doing a back start. I was a horrible back starter as a kid so I had to re-learn as an adult and this is how I learned. If I go with the block, I do a back flop. Plus, I like that I can practice if, like today, the pool has taken the blocks out for cleaning. For me the gutter starts are faster because I'm not thinking about the pain of a block start.
One of my knees won't bend enough to do a backstroke block start well. I get better results from a gutter start with legs staggered like a track start.
