The DQ thread got me thinking about swimming rules I'd like to see repealed. Here's my list:
15M rule on freestyle -- You're allowed to do virtually anything you want in a freestyle race provided you touch the walls, don't push off the bottom and don't pull on the lane lines. Why is going beyond 15 meters doing SDK not "freestyle?"
15M rule on backstroke -- Again, the rule seems arbitrary as I could go 15M underwater SDK, pop up and then kick the rest of the way still doing SDK on my back and be perfectly legal. What's so magical about 15M?
Dolphin kick off the wall on a breaststroke pullout -- just have the guts to DQ Kitajima back when he should've been DQd and this whole :worms:wouldn't have been opened.
Rollover backstroke turns -- go back to the bucket turn (touch on your back, turn, push off on your back) and you save a whole bunch of DQ hassles for swimmers & judges. Yeah, times will be way slower, but we banned tech suits, so clearly the swimming purists should be lined up behind this one.
Standup backstroke starts -- what's so magical about starting with your toes / feet in the water when we get to start with our feet out of the water on all other races? Let's stop the discrimination against backstrokers!
For the record, with the exception of #5, I would derive no speed benefit from any of the above rule changes as a competitor (I can't hold my breath in a race for 15M and my doplhin kick on the *** pullout is weak at best). As an S&T judge, though, all of these would make my life easier and, I believe (#5 possibly excepted), be more consistent with the overall rules for the strokes.
Actually, leaving aspersions against 'noodlers' aside, sidestroke is the method of choice for deep/open water rescue and survival. It's also arguably the single most propulsive movement in all of swimming.
I think the properly performed whip kick is much more propulsive than the scissor kick.
Someone raised the (in my opinion) red herring that swimmers wouldn't be able to adjust to different breakout distances. Chris (I think) said he counts kicks to decide where to breakout. Unless Chris has difficulty counting to lower numbers than higher numbers I suspect he (and everybody else) would be able to adjust.
Yes, I count kicks, but I think it would be a hard adjustment to make. It isn't just about counting but trajectory off the wall. When you emphasize kicking off the walls in your races, you become accustomed to pushing off at a greater downward trajectory to get to deeper (faster) water. There is also a rhythm kind of thing: you become used to taking N kicks off the walls and have to take N/2, that's not a minor adjustment.
I also believe the SDK blows. I think the rules were changed soon after the 100 Back at the '88 Seoul Olympics when Berkoff was stunned by Daichi Suzuki in the final. Both of them spent all of first 50 meters underwater, then most of the next 50 meters submerged. Kind of hard to watch. Does not seem much like backstroke to me.
I also believe the SDK blows. I think the rules were changed soon after the 100 Back at the '88 Seoul Olympics when Berkoff was stunned by Daichi Suzuki in the final. Both of them spent all of first 50 meters underwater, then most of the next 50 meters submerged. Kind of hard to watch. Does not seem much like backstroke to me.
Backstroke if free on your back, there aren't many rules. Adding a bunch of rules makes it less backstroke.
There is already a sport where mediocrity is rewarded - triathlons.
gem of the thread
i'd like to see flip turns for the short axis strokes.... isn't 200 yds/mtrs and less already short enough without needing that big air after each length?
I also believe the SDK blows. I think the rules were changed soon after the 100 Back at the '88 Seoul Olympics when Berkoff was stunned by Daichi Suzuki in the final. Both of them spent all of first 50 meters underwater, then most of the next 50 meters submerged. Kind of hard to watch. Does not seem much like backstroke to me.
Not even close to the whole way UW. He went 30-35m in the first lap, and maybe 10m on the second lap (certainly not 15m). But see for yourself:
YouTube - 1988 Olympic Men's 100m Backstroke final - Daichi Suzuki
Honestly, I think he went too hard and far UW on the first lap (I realize Suzuki went just as far) and the oxygen deprivation from it cost him the win. (Well, that and his slow reaction on the start.) And the guy who went furthest underwater (Sean Murphy) wasn't even in the running for gold.
I'll say it again: I believe that if the 15m wasn't there, it wouldn't make very much difference at all in races 100 and above. Going too far or hard UW at the beginning causes a lot of pain at the end of the race. Anti-SDK people don't realize how much effort it takes either in training or in a race. It isn't free speed.
Anti-SDK people don't realize how much effort it takes either in training or in a race.
True! I think very few people actually train it.
There was a lot of backstroke in that video. No danger of eliminating arms.
I think we are...
I believe that what you and other anti-SDK types would like is a return to backstroke as practiced by the likes of John Naber and Rick Carey. What is ironic about that stance is that, according to the rules in effect when those two backstroker greats swam, we had:
-- stand-up starts (in SCY, anyway)
-- bucket turns
-- unlimited SDKs on your back, if you so choose
What you object to (extensive SDKs) were the result of an *innovation* popularized by David Berkoff, not a rules change. SDKs have *always been legal* in backstroke and in all other strokes except breaststroke.
But I notice that the "abolish the SDK" is often promoted by people who either can't/won't kick or seem to believe that swimming is only an upper body sport.
Since I can't seem to have a conversation on what the rules should be without getting into a discussion about what the rules are or were (neither of which is of interest to me) or being accused of being a weak kicker (which is completely false -- I have far more lower-body strength than upper), I will simply try to state my position on this for one last time, and then unsubscribe from the thread. I forgot that (like tech suits) some topics simply can't be discussed here in a useful way.
My view is simply that it would be nice to be able to see who is better at the above-the-water part and who is better at the below-the-water part. A person who is weak at SDKing might blow away others on the above-the-water part, whereas a person who is super strong at SDKing might really be able to shine in an SDK-only event, not hampered by the above-the-water parts. Of course, someone could also be good at both, in which case, they could shine in both events.
Again, that is just my opinion, and I recognize that others may find value in the rules and practices as they currently stand.
I'm sure that qualifies me for all sorts of abuse and instruction on what the rules are and were, but alas, I won't be reading them.
There was a lot of backstroke in that video. No danger of eliminating arms.
Right, but that was LCM. The 15m rule means at most 30% of a legal race will be SDK, and as we saw in the '88 100m final, much less. Anybody got video of 100 SCY or SCM from that era (pre-15m rule)? I couldn't dredge anything up on YouTube for Berkoff which wasn't video from Seoul. I thought I'd seen some once upon a time.
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