The DQ thread got me thinking about swimming rules I'd like to see repealed. Here's my list:
15M rule on freestyle -- You're allowed to do virtually anything you want in a freestyle race provided you touch the walls, don't push off the bottom and don't pull on the lane lines. Why is going beyond 15 meters doing SDK not "freestyle?"
15M rule on backstroke -- Again, the rule seems arbitrary as I could go 15M underwater SDK, pop up and then kick the rest of the way still doing SDK on my back and be perfectly legal. What's so magical about 15M?
Dolphin kick off the wall on a breaststroke pullout -- just have the guts to DQ Kitajima back when he should've been DQd and this whole :worms:wouldn't have been opened.
Rollover backstroke turns -- go back to the bucket turn (touch on your back, turn, push off on your back) and you save a whole bunch of DQ hassles for swimmers & judges. Yeah, times will be way slower, but we banned tech suits, so clearly the swimming purists should be lined up behind this one.
Standup backstroke starts -- what's so magical about starting with your toes / feet in the water when we get to start with our feet out of the water on all other races? Let's stop the discrimination against backstrokers!
For the record, with the exception of #5, I would derive no speed benefit from any of the above rule changes as a competitor (I can't hold my breath in a race for 15M and my doplhin kick on the *** pullout is weak at best). As an S&T judge, though, all of these would make my life easier and, I believe (#5 possibly excepted), be more consistent with the overall rules for the strokes.
Former Member
Actually, leaving aspersions against 'noodlers' aside, sidestroke is the method of choice for deep/open water rescue and survival. It's also arguably the single most propulsive movement in all of swimming.
A single execution of a spread-legged kick (whip or scissors) is more propulsive than a single execution of a close-legged kick (flutter or dolphin), because a spread-legged kick catches much more water. Whether a given swimmer can achieve more yardage from a whip or scissors kick depends on his or her technique, strength, flexibility, etc.
The reason a single execution of sidestroke will tend to achieve more yardage than a single execution of breaststroke, is due to the simultaneity of the arm pull and scissors kick in the sidestroke.
In breaststroke, we have yet to devise a way for the double-arm pull to be more than a preparation--a setup--for the whip kick. The breaststroke arm and whip kick are done in succession, one after the other.
In sidestroke, properly executed, the lower arm prepares and sets up the scissors kick. The kick is then done simultaneous with the higher arm pull, which has extended fully forward during the setup, then pulls the length of the body simultaneous with the scissors kick. The higher arm pull, combined with the scissors kick, provides maximum propulsion.
Competitive swimmers, especially breaststrokers, stand to benefit from the technical and muscular improvement resulting from sidestroke development.
Competitive swimmers, especially breaststrokers, stand to benefit from the technical and muscular improvement resulting from sidestroke development.
The only people I've noticed using the sidestroke with any intention of going fast are the Navy Seals. And, I believe their use of this particular stroke (it has its own name I can't remember offhand) is to be as quiet as possible while swimming.
Whenever I've played around with sidestroke, I've always ended up cheating and using a breaststroke kick because it seems so much more efficient. It doesn't seem likely that the scissor kick would be at all helpful in developing breaststroke kicking. Two totally different kicks.
SDK races would actually be very fun to watch probably up to 100 yards/meters. I am sure that would become a safety issue too though with people trying to hold their breath as long as possible while exerting that much energy at a high level. Lots of blackouts!!
I like that idea. I've been picking up work as a lifeguard, and it is SO BORING. If a few more people would just need rescuing, it would be a lot more interesting for me.
:)
Also, I want to voice my support of sidestroke. Not just for noodlers! It's also for those of us who grew up where there was no swim team and ended up on a lifeguard track, and now have at least one stroke to school all ya'll who spent your misspent youth chasing a black line.
Everything WBL says makes some sense to me, which just goes to show why I've always disliked breaststroke. Any stroke where sidestroke is being proposed seriously (maybe? I can't always tell with WBL) as an effective training tool is simply not for me. But what about trudgeon crawl?
As far as being more propulsive than flutter/dolphin on a one-by-one basis, I agree. (Well, I agree for *most* people...I think for dolphin vs frog kicks it is about even in my case, due to bad knees and very poor "breaststroke-specific" leg/ankle flexibility. When I do breaststroke but substitute a dolphin kick I go about the same speed, maybe faster.)
The problem, of course, is that by the time a breaststroker has done one kick, I've done 2-3 dolphin kicks or 4-5 flutter kicks...but certainly, frog kick (and breaststroke in general) is probably a big improvement over aqua-aerobics. :bolt:
A single execution of a spread-legged kick (whip or scissors) is more propulsive than a single execution of a close-legged kick (flutter or dolphin), because a spread-legged kick catches much more water. Whether a given swimmer can achieve more yardage from a whip or scissors kick depends on his or her technique, strength, flexibility, etc.
The reason a single execution of sidestroke will tend to achieve more yardage than a single execution of breaststroke, is due to the simultaneity of the arm pull and scissors kick in the sidestroke.
In breaststroke, we have yet to devise a way for the double-arm pull to be more than a preparation--a setup--for the whip kick. The breaststroke arm and whip kick are done in succession, one after the other.
In sidestroke, properly executed, the lower arm prepares and sets up the scissors kick. The kick is then done simultaneous with the higher arm pull, which has extended fully forward during the setup, then pulls the length of the body simultaneous with the scissors kick. The higher arm pull, combined with the scissors kick, provides maximum propulsion.
Competitive swimmers, especially breaststrokers, stand to benefit from the technical and muscular improvement resulting from sidestroke development.
If you want maximum propulsion from a single swimming action I'd have to vote for BR pulldown with simultaneous dolphin kick.
Any stroke where sidestroke is being proposed seriously (maybe? I can't always tell with WBL) as an effective training tool is simply not for me.
The assertion that sidestroke is any kind of effective training tool for breaststroke is faulty, IMO. Sidestroke is precisely for those who don't have the ankle or hip flexibility do a properly propulsive breaststroke kick.
My :2cents::
I like the idea of adding a fifth stroke called "front crawl" and making "freestyle" truly rules-free, including unlimited SDK. Maybe limit "freestyle" to shorter distances? On front crawl and backstroke, you could then limit (maybe even more so than now) how far you can go underwater.
Sidestroke is a legitimate stroke but I don't see a lot of reason to add it as a competitive stroke.
I'm no physicist, but I highly doubt that a scissor kick can be as propulsive as a frog kick. My completely non-scientific rationale is that in the frog kick, both legs are operating on the same plane and thus push water against each other. Not true in a scissor kick.
I agree with Allen on the maximum propulsion from a single swimming action, but I would move the dolphin kick to the the beginning of the pulldown.
I see no reason for dive starts in backstroke (it makes sense to start and stay on your back to me rather than start on your front and switch to your back), but standing starts and or starts with feet above the gutter should be fine.
I could see a flip turn for butterfly because your arms already move in a way that is natural to initial the turn. That's not true in breaststroke so it makes less sense. Also, air--too necessary.
My :2cents::
I could see a flip turn for butterfly because your arms already move in a way that is natural to initial the turn. That's not true in breaststroke so it makes less sense. Also, air--too necessary.
I agree, Midas! A flip turn on breaststroke? :afraid:
I agree, Midas! A flip turn on breaststroke? :afraid:
This would be nice to be able to do in meets. I practice my breaststroke with flip turns as it is now. That is... on the occasion that I practice breaststroke.
