Rules I'd like to see repealed

Right, but that was LCM. The 15m rule means at most 30% of a legal race will be SDK, and as we saw in the '88 100m final, much less. Anybody got video of 100 SCY or SCM from that era (pre-15m rule)? I couldn't dredge anything up on YouTube for Berkoff which wasn't video from Seoul. I thought I'd seen some once upon a time. Skip Here's one of a 50 relay leadoff. Poor quality, unfortunately. Keep watching after Berkoff's heat and keep an eye on Princeton in Lane 1. Pretty much the whole race is swum underwater. YouTube - Princeton Swimming, Medley Relays '89 & '90

Since I can't seem to have a conversation on what the rules should be without getting into a discussion about what the rules are or were (neither of which is of interest to me) or being accused of being a weak kicker (which is completely false -- I have far more lower-body strength than upper), I will simply try to state my position on this for one last time, and then unsubscribe from the thread. I forgot that (like tech suits) some topics simply can't be discussed here in a useful way. My view is simply that it would be nice to be able to see who is better at the above-the-water part and who is better at the below-the-water part. A person who is weak at SDKing might blow away others on the above-the-water part, whereas a person who is super strong at SDKing might really be able to shine in an SDK-only event, not hampered by the above-the-water parts. Of course, someone could also be good at both, in which case, they could shine in both events. Again, that is just my opinion, and I recognize that others may find value in the rules and practices as they currently stand. I'm sure that qualifies me for all sorts of abuse and instruction on what the rules are and were, but alas, I won't be reading them. I don't think there is an event for the below-water part, nor do I think there is much of a clamor for one. But there already is an event for the strictly above-water part: open water swimming. Once you have walls in the equations, you can't get away from having underwaters. Sorry you don't like a discussion about rules...but that's kind of what the thread is about. I don't think I saw any abuse or verbal rough-play; certainly none was intended from me. I'm sorry that you got upset.

IMVHO, current FINA rules are poorly conceived, and even more poorly expressed and enforced. Here, briefly, are the outlines of some changes I would recommend for consideration: *Return to conventional swimsuits, on the principle that they should neither enhance nor impede performance, while covering the private parts. *Define each stroke according to one type of kick and one type of arm movement: -Freestyle would be renamed 'frontstroke,' defined by the flutter kick and alternating arm pulls. -Backstroke similarly defined, only on the back. As in all events, starts would begin with an entry dive. Backstrokers would be permitted to roll over on their front sides for turns and the finish, and to remain on their fronts for each length until taking their first arm recovery. -Breaststroke would be defined by a whip kick and simultaneous double-arm pull with full underwater recovery. A single dolphin kick would be allowed DURING the first arm pull of each length. -Butterfly would be defined by a dolphin kick and simultaneous double-arm pull with above-water recovery. At the beginning of each length, two dolphin kicks would be allowed before the head surfaces. -Sidestroke would be introduced as a competitive event, defined by a scissors kick and alternating underwater arm movements. A single arm pull and no kick would be allowed before the head surfaces for each length. *Freestyle would be a no-rule stroke, other than the obvious restrictions. *All events would allow any type of turn. *Optional events of public interest might be strict underwater SDK races, on the back and front. This is just an outline, folks. Let the feeding frenzy begin... Too complicated. Wear whatever suit you want. Free = anything goes, it's free Back = stay on your back *** = stay on the ***, do whatever kick you like Fly = requires some double arm flying motion No sidestroke, that's for noodlers

Sorry you don't like a discussion about rules...but that's kind of what the thread is about. I don't think I saw any abuse or verbal rough-play; certainly none was intended from me. I'm sorry that you got upset. Chris saves all his rough play for the tech suit threads. :) :bolt: At least we agree on SDKs!

Chris saves all his rough play for the tech suit threads. You just say that b/c you're on the receiving end... :)

You just say that b/c you're on the receiving end... :) hehe, I pay no mind to it. And I try to give it right back. :D

Saying that "backstroke is anything on your back" doesn't get at the main question, which is what the rule should be (not what it actually is), and, moreover, it's false, since under the current rules you can't go the whole length underwater on your back. Enough of defining backstroke. Let's talk about what the rules should be. I think we are... I believe that what you and other anti-SDK types would like is a return to backstroke as practiced by the likes of John Naber and Rick Carey. What is ironic about that stance is that, according to the rules in effect when those two backstroker greats swam, we had: -- stand-up starts (in SCY, anyway) -- bucket turns -- unlimited SDKs on your back, if you so choose What you object to (extensive SDKs) were the result of an *innovation* popularized by David Berkoff, not a rules change. SDKs have *always been legal* in backstroke and in all other strokes except breaststroke. It wasn't until 1989 or so that limits were placed on SDKs (first 10m, now 15m). About the same time, the rollover turn was introduced and stand-up starts were eliminated. (Backstroke purists be damned!) So asking for a return to stand-up starts, bucket turns and unlimited SDKs (ie, anything goes as long as you remain on your back) is in its way just as retro as what you've proposed. Despite your contention that SDKs "aren't really backstroke because you can't do them the whole way," consider that if you take a *single stroke* of *** or fly or crawl in a backstroke race, you are immediately DQ'd. Like them or not as you wish: SDKs have always been a part of "real backstroke." I've been doing them off walls (at least a little, not like Berkoff) since the 70s. Outlawing them -- no dolphin kicks at all -- would be a radical change and I contend that they are against the general principle of the stroke (again, do anything but stay on your back).

Dolphin kick off the wall on a breaststroke pullout -- just have the guts to DQ Kitajima back when he should've been DQd and this whole :worms:wouldn't have been opened. I think I agree with you, but the problem is it cannot be detected 100% of the time because, well, it is underwater and you don't get a clear view. You could use underwater cameras at the Olympics, but you cannot do that at an age group meet. I know of one division 1 coach who taught swimmers how to get away with it long before it was legal (and before Kitajima did it) because he knew a DQ was unlikley. Really it has been common practice for quite sometime (which by no means makes it right, just trying to impress that it is difficult to detect).

IMVHO, current FINA rules are poorly conceived, and even more poorly expressed and enforced. Here, briefly, are the outlines of some changes I would recommend for consideration: *Return to conventional swimsuits, on the principle that they should neither enhance nor impede performance, while covering the private parts. *Define each stroke according to one type of kick and one type of arm movement: -Freestyle would be renamed 'frontstroke,' defined by the flutter kick and alternating arm pulls. -Backstroke similarly defined, only on the back. As in all events, starts would begin with an entry dive. Backstrokers would be permitted to roll over on their front sides for turns and the finish, and to remain on their fronts for each length until taking their first arm recovery. -Breaststroke would be defined by a whip kick and simultaneous double-arm pull with full underwater recovery. A single dolphin kick would be allowed DURING the first arm pull of each length. -Butterfly would be defined by a dolphin kick and simultaneous double-arm pull with above-water recovery. At the beginning of each length, two dolphin kicks would be allowed before the head surfaces. -Sidestroke would be introduced as a competitive event, defined by a scissors kick and alternating underwater arm movements. A single arm pull and no kick would be allowed before the head surfaces for each length. *Freestyle would be a no-rule stroke, other than the obvious restrictions. *All events would allow any type of turn. *Optional events of public interest might be strict underwater SDK races, on the back and front. This is just an outline, folks. Let the feeding frenzy begin...

I originally raised the point about breakout by 15m in SC. My only point was 15m is a so much greater fraction of the length of those shorter pools that it seems to me like they place a much greater emphasis on the SDK than on the stroke part. If you would like it to be more comparable to LCM in terms how how much on-top-of-the-water swimming you to it would be nice if the rule was changed for SC to require a breakout by something more like 8-10m. Someone raised the (in my opinion) red herring that swimmers wouldn't be able to adjust to different breakout distances. Chris (I think) said he counts kicks to decide where to breakout. Unless Chris has difficulty counting to lower numbers than higher numbers I suspect he (and everybody else) would be able to adjust. Sorry, I didn't mean to open a can of worms. Skip