Rules I'd like to see repealed

It seems to me as though you are quibbling. Clearly, according to the current rules, SDK on your back is not backstroke, or else you could do it for the whole length of the pool. Or, to put it another way -- there is the SDKing that you can do during the first 15m of backstroke, and then there is the stuff you can do for the rest of the length. Call that second part whatever you like, but I'd like to see us return to a focus on that. You might disagree with me -- fine. Again, I am sure that most people disagree with me. But don't try to define my suggestion out of existence. It's not a very polite way to argue. I don't believe I was being impolite, I'm just not agreeing with you. Backstroke is a very broadly defined stroke, almost as much as freestyle. The only thing is that you must be on your back. And yes, you must surface by 15m (as in freestyle and butterfly). But if you want you can continue to kick -- dolphin or otherwise -- afterward. There is nothing that says you have to swim in a particular way, or even use your arms at all, as long as you remain on your back. I simply think you are arbitrarily trying to define backstroke in a somewhat narrow way. If that's the part you like, that's your choice, but that doesn't make it "real backstroke."

I don't believe I was being impolite, I'm just not agreeing with you. Backstroke is a very broadly defined stroke, almost as much as freestyle. The only thing is that you must be on your back. And yes, you must surface by 15m (as in freestyle and butterfly). But if you want you can continue to kick -- dolphin or otherwise -- afterward. There is nothing that says you have to swim in a particular way, or even use your arms at all, as long as you remain on your back. I simply think you are arbitrarily trying to define backstroke in a somewhat narrow way. If that's the part you like, that's your choice, but that doesn't make it "real backstroke." Well, I don't like any part of it, actually; I'm not a backstroker. I just picked backstroke to use as an example, and I would say the same for fly and free. I understand that after the 15m you can use your arms or not, or do elementary backstroke, or whatever. But that wasn't the point we were discussing. The point we were discussing was whether 15m of underwater SDK should count as part of backstroke. Saying that "backstroke is anything on your back" doesn't get at the main question, which is what the rule should be (not what it actually is), and, moreover, it's false, since under the current rules you can't go the whole length underwater on your back. Enough of defining backstroke. Let's talk about what the rules should be.

Well, I don't like any part of it, actually; I'm not a backstroker. I just picked backstroke to use as an example, and I would say the same for fly and free. I understand that after the 15m you can use your arms or not, or do elementary backstroke, or whatever. But that wasn't the point we were discussing. The point we were discussing was whether 15m of underwater SDK should count as part of backstroke. Saying that "backstroke is anything on your back" doesn't get at the main question, which is what the rule should be (not what it actually is), and, moreover, it's false, since under the current rules you can't go the whole length underwater on your back. Enough of defining backstroke. Let's talk about what the rules should be. What Chris and I are saying is that, technically speaking, SDKs have always been perfectly legal. You want a repeal that would re-define the stroke to mandate that simultaneous arm motion and flutter kick is all that is allowed? That is a valid opinion. (And I'd ideally like to substitute dolphin kick for whip kick on breaststroke too, if we're speaking of ideal total redefinitions.) But I notice that the "abolish the SDK" is often promoted by people who either can't/won't kick or seem to believe that swimming is only an upper body sport. I'd love a separate SDK race that threw out the 15 meter rule, at least for 50s. But that still leaves plenty of "backstroke" left to swim in all the other events. Underwater swimming is beautiful to watch. I'm really looking forward to watching the leading expert, Mike Ross, do it in Boston. I don't think Chris is ever really rude. Just logical.

But, but, but ... 15 meters is 66% of a SCY pool or 60% of a SCM pool. In LCM it's only 30% of the pool. So, in SCM or SCY you swim no more than half as much backstroke as in LCM and the race is much more like an SDK race instead of a backstroke race. I'm no expert. How close to 15m to good swimmers get at the end of a 200yd race? I assume not as close as at the beginning. And counting kicks makes it easy (and proves my point I think). You don't need a visual cue. Just kick the desired number of times and pop out. What am I missing? Skip Counting kicks is about the only reliable way to make sure you don't run afoul of the 15m rule, since not all lane lines have a different colored disk for the 15 mark. And even that's hard to see if your head is in line with your spine underwater. And that's when your goggles don't leak.

Get rid of the two hand touch for *** and Fly. Let us do flip turns with the Freestylers and Backstrokers... :applaud: This would be a tough one for me. I need the air I get from the open turn in order to go a good pull-out!

I like Knuckledragger's idea above ... why not flip turns for all strokes? I'm sure all the 200 flyers would much rather flip on the 7th wall ... To be honest, I don't think I would. Turning with a two arm pull is somewhat awkward...I do it sometimes in practice when I'm wearing fins for *** and fly sets just so the fins plant on the wall better. I like turns the way they are, but with gutters as pwb stated.

I didn't think you HAD to do the fly kicks, I was under the assumption that you COULD do them. I didn't do them when I swam at my LCM meet this past summer, and I wasn't DQ'd (never been DQ'd, but I've only swum in a handful of meets).Tim, you are correct. Dolphin kicks are optional.

In freestyle you should be able to do what you wish. It may be that SDKing on your back may be the fastest way to swim. So be it. Backstroke shall be the same, yet the swimmer must stay on their back. I have made my decision. Abide.

SDK races would actually be very fun to watch probably up to 100 yards/meters. I am sure that would become a safety issue too though with people trying to hold their breath as long as possible while exerting that much energy at a high level. Lots of blackouts!!

My view is simply that it would be nice to be able to see who is better at the above-the-water part and who is better at the below-the-water part. There is already a sport where mediocrity is rewarded - triathlons.