2010 USMS Convention DALLAS TX

I have only processed a few record applications, but aren't you supposed to have the timers sign the timing sheets when there is a record? How do you handle that - do you have the timers all sign every timer sheet, just in case?

Touchpads with manual watches as backups. These are the instructions on the record form: "Attach the printout showing event number, heat number, splits, backup from the electronic timing system and/or time card with the signatures of all three timers." I interpreted the "and" as saying that I needed to submit both the backup from the electronic timing system, AND the time card with the signatures of all three timers. Perhaps Chris can clarify. I recall frantically running around at the end of one meet, trying to find the timers for a certain lane after we realized that a record had been set.

If there is NO time, then an adjustment is not possible and you need the 3 timers. If the pad misses at the finish (i.e., single lane malfunction), you can make an appropriate correction using either a single button, or a single watch, if that's all you have. Having more than one human helps to make it more reliable, but a single button backup is sufficient. (Otherwise, every meet would always need 3 human timers per lane, even if you had touchpads, just in case, and for sure that doesn't happen.) -Rick

If the pad misses at the finish (i.e., single lane malfunction), you can make an appropriate correction using either a single button, or a single watch, if that's all you have. Having more than one human helps to make it more reliable, but a single button backup is sufficient. Yes, I realized my brainfart soon after I posted but couldn't get back here to change it. So then I guess don't know why at some meets (with automatic timing as the primary system) they have you request a 3rd timer if you anticipate breaking a record.

Touchpads with manual watches as backups. These are the instructions on the record form: "Attach the printout showing event number, heat number, splits, backup from the electronic timing system and/or time card with the signatures of all three timers." I interpreted the "and" as saying that I needed to submit both the backup from the electronic timing system, AND the time card with the signatures of all three timers. Perhaps Chris can clarify. I recall frantically running around at the end of one meet, trying to find the timers for a certain lane after we realized that a record had been set. I had interpreted it that way too, but I have heard from very many experienced hands who always do as Rick does (without the signatures) so clearly Walt accepts them that way. I believe the signatures are only required if buttons/watches are the primary system or if the touchpad completely fails (eg the person misses the pad) and the watches must be used. Given the fact that automatic timing from splits can be used for records -- there ARE no timers in that case, since until this past Convention manual timing for splits was not allowed -- I don't see how timer signatures can be a requirement if the touchpad time is deemed valiid. I'll ask Walt to be sure; we need to make another change in the record application form anyway for the Rule Book. (The form does not make it clear that *copies* of the birth certificate or passport are sufficient for proof of age.) Maybe we can re-word this part. On a related manner, I'm not looking forward to trying to re-word the split request form in light of the passage of R48. Now we have the following: 1. Split requests must be submitted ahead of time for backstroke and relay leadoffs. 2. Split requests must be submitted by the end of the meet in other cases when automatic timing is the primary system. 3. When timers/buttons are used as the primary system, all split requests must be submitted before the swim. (This should be obvious, but...!) 4. The same primary timing system shall be used for splits as is used for the completed swims. (In other words, if touchpads are available and functioning, a swimmer cannot request a hand-timed split.)

Thought it might have been a brainfart. :-) I think the reason people ask for 3 timers is mostly not knowing. The USA Swimming, USMS, and NCAA rulebooks are a bit vague in the areas of timers required for records, and what you do when a pad malfunctions. My recollection is that the concept that you can correct a pad malfunction with a single button is largely based on established practice and interpretation, and is not firmly or clearly written in any of the rulebooks. Nobody wants to screw it up, so everyone over-prepares. (Which isn't a terrible thing... three buttons are better than 2, which are better than 1.) The terrible problem arises when you have one human timer, and the touchpad fails, and it happens to be the one race that the timer was asleep and missed the finish as well. -Rick

What if for some reason the starting system doesn't activate in a heat with a potential record? Would that not be a good case for having the third backup timer? Or, let's say your timing system only has 2 buttons per lane and the swimmer misses the pad and the two button times are far apart - so you need to rule one of the button times out. The watch times, presumably, tell the story as to which button time is good and which is bad. Let's say you had a third watch on the lane. If the one person with the bad button time was also off with the watch, at least you have that middle watch time to use. Or do you then use the one button time and apply a horizontal or vertical correction to come up with a pad time? If the latter is the case where you are permitted to use just one button time than it is even rarer to need the 3 watches (except to give the timing judge some peace of mind that the one button time is legit). My head hurts thinking about this...

One interesting note... and I need to check the USA Swimming rulebook more closely for a reference. In all my workings with nationally-certified USA Swimming admin refs, they repeatedly pointed out that when using touchpads (i.e., automatic primary system), in the event of a pad malfunction, a corrected time (i.e., adjusted/calculated button, etc.) is then considered an automatic time. I.e., if you're running a meet with touchpads, with one backup timer per lane, and have a pad malfunction on a finish... if you make the appropriate correction to the single button time, then that corrected/adjusted time is considered an automatic time for the purposes of the rules, records, etc. I.e., if you have a pad malfunction, and correctly adjust a button time following the procedures, even with just a single button, then that should be sufficient for a record. I don't think that's ever happened in our meet (needing to use an adjusted button for a record). However, based on my use of the record application form... if that happened, we likely wouldn't have the signature of the timer available. (We wouldn't put 2 and 2 together to even know it was a record until later in most cases.) This of course also just gets to... at some point, we do need to trust that everyone is honest. If anyone really wanted to, it would be trivial to forge a timing system printout for any time that I wanted to for any swimmer that you wanted to. -Rick

The timing system not starting is easy to deal with, as long as you can start the timing system late. That's a heat malfunction, and the heat malfunction correction rules go into play. Even if you only have one timer/button per lane, you have, in effect, as many timers and you have lanes to correct. If you have 8 lanes, then for each lane, you get a pad-to-button differential, and then average that differential across all lanes, and that tells you exactly how late the timer started, and thus how much time to add to each pad time to correct. That is very accurate, given that you're introducing 8 or 16 or 24 humans into the formula. In the case of a pad malfunction, and you have a bad human timer... of course more timers will help. In my experience working with USA Swimming National Admin Referees, the general practice is that you look to find as much agreement with your data that you can, while keeping in mind that if you have human timers pushing buttons and watches, then you may have corresponding pairs of good or bad data. For example, you may have a timer who is slow on the finish, and the pad _and_ button is always slow. However, they may also be slow at the start with the stopwatch, so that may "correct itself" on both ends of the swim. You also have order of finish that can help. If you have watch or button data that matches, or does not match, the order of finish, that can help piece together the data. In the end, it becomes a judgment call in terms of what data is valid. The standard of course is 0.30 second difference between a pad and button to signal a problem... but it is the judgment of the Timing Judge (under the direction of the Referee) to determine if it was the pad that was bad, or the button that was bad, or both, based on the available data. But certainly... it is a dream having three human timers per lane if you can get it. (Although sometimes... I'd take one good competent timer, over three bad human timers.) In the very very rare case that I have no good data to arrive at a time, I've got no choice but to manually insert the slowest possible time that fits the available data. For example, I know you finished about 3 seconds ahead of the swimmer in lane 6, but don't know by how much, I might give you a time that is 1.00 seconds faster than lane 6, knowing it couldn't be slower than that.. but I can't know that it was any faster. -Rick

This of course also just gets to... at some point, we do need to trust that everyone is honest. If anyone really wanted to, it would be trivial to forge a timing system printout for any time that I wanted to for any swimmer that you wanted to. -Rick The record app doesn't specify which printout is actually required for the record. However, in my dealings with Walt it is the "Race History" that is required, not the "Race Summary." I am using CTS terminology and don't know what Omega, Daktronics, etc. may use. The Race Summary can be printed out later in the meet after adjustments have been made. The Race History comes off the press real time and shows all of the original pad hits and can't be printed later. Therefore, for honesty purposes the Race History is the one that can't be changed (unless somebody uses white-out, etc. to make a change or if they can recreate the sheet using Word using the same fonts, etc.). The problem is if you 100% require the Race History for the record app, you are SOL if the printer happens to jam during that heat because you cannot recreate it later - unless Walt will accept a Race Summary with an honest mea culpa. Why are all these details so critical? Here's my best explanation why you can't just turn in meet results signed by the ref from a meet that used aumatic timing: you need a copy of the heat sheet to place the swimmer in a specific heat/lane. You then use the Race History to show what that heat/lane actually did. Meet Results, as we all know, sometimes contain errors with the wrong swimmer, NS, etc. But pairing the heat sheet with the Race History tells the story. Jeff