freestyle vs kick-only times

So many questions. With a board Without a board In a 25M pool In a 50M pool Dolphin kick for 15M in a 25M pool each length Dolphin kick for 15M in a 50M pool No dolphin kick Two arms extended in front in streamline One arm in front streamline the other arm sculls at the thigh when taking a breath These are just a few qestions there are many more. geochuck, thanks for the response. I am primarily concerned with comparing the following: 1) 25M pool "fastest speed normal freestyle" (whatever that means to you) 2) 25M pool flutter kick, arms in front with no board. For the breathing you can do whatever you want, just don't use a snorkel. If you or someone else could give me these times to compare, that would be great.

My 50 free from a push LCM is 29 seconds and my 50 kick on my back without a board is about 42 seconds.

I recently compared my fastest kick-only time (no snorkel or flippers) with my fastest freestyle time and it is almost exactly 2x slower. I read various places that the kick provides a much smaller portion of the total propulsion in freestyle, so this gap seems smaller than I would expect. Remember that a given kick intensity will provide less propulsion the faster you are moving. So having a kick time that is half of your swim time doesn't mean that half of the propulsion is coming from the kick. If you compare your pull time to your full stroke time you'll get a better indication of how much the kick is providing.

So many questions. With a board Without a board In a 25M pool In a 50M pool Dolphin kick for 15M in a 25M pool each length Dolphin kick for 15M in a 50M pool No dolphin kick Two arms extended in front in streamline One arm in front streamline the other arm sculls at the thigh when taking a breath These are just a few qestions there are many more. Great questions! You want to be as objective as possible, so know the variables specific to timing each effort and keep it consistent. I have my swimmers kick without a board, lock their elbows and lock their thumbs. Good luck!

The only kicking I do now is the hands locked behind the back. An old waterpolo drill. You hold your head up out of the water and kick several lengths, Hardest work you will ever do.

My ratio is 0.55 for a 25 SCY and 0.60 for a 50 SCY. My kick is terrible.

... It makes me think that it's not just adding the pull and the kick together to get swimming speed, but some weird synergy where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. But what, I wonder, accounts for this? What is the Mystery Factor? Body roll? Some unintended anchoring effect whereby the legs allow the arms to gain greater purchase on the water? I don't think it's a mystery at all ... (my :2cents: follows) ... Ignoring the finer points, in swimming you use two systems of two levers: an anterior system (arms)consisting of two arms, coupled by the (relatively) rigid pectoral girdle, and a posterior system (legs) consisting of two legs, coupled by the pelvis. The two systems are themselves coupled by the axial skeleton and core muscles. Our coaches are constantly telling us to "engage your core!" in freestyle and backstroke -- they are saying. "coordinate the two systems!" But why? In the laterally asymmetric long axis strokes, legs serve two purposes -- yes, for propulsion (moreso in sprint events than in distance events), but even more importantly, for navigation. Acting as rudders, the legs allow you to keep your upper body in the correct orientation and moving in the correct direction. Core strength is important for transferring force from legs to arms, for both purposes. What is a mystery to me is why pulling sets, without kicking, are a virtue. When I try to pull only, I flounder hopelessly. I need legs to stay straight! :2cents:

I am curious if there are many like me who have: A) a relatively slow kicking speed B) a relatively slow pulling speed (i.e., with pull buoy) C) despite the above two shortcomings, a relatively decent swimming speed It makes me think that it's not just adding the pull and the kick together to get swimming speed, but some weird synergy where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Put me down as a weak kicker, strong puller. For a 100 SCY, from a push I'd be around 1:04 swim and 1:40 kick with a board for a 0.64 ratio. I've worked on my kick a fair amount and I'm trying to better integrate my kick into my stroke. What works best for me is doing a set of broken 200s as 100 kick followed immediately by 100 swim. I get a good sense of continuing my kick during the swim portion.

Of course, integrating the skill and strength into the stroke is important too. That's my problem. I'm a great kicker only when I'm just kicking.

I think the question is whether kicking is the activity that will give you the greatest improvement, and the answer for that depends on the swimmer. I'm talking here about the 15-25% of a workout typically devoted to kicking. For an extreme example, an inexperienced swimmer will benefit far more from stroke development than from kicking, so should probably kick less than the standard amount. At the other end, I think, would be a person who swims 100 SCY in, say a minute but kicks it in two. That person probably has good technique already, so a kicking regimen would benefit them more than additional stroke technique. This person would probably benefit from kicking more than 25% of a workout. Of course, integrating the skill and strength into the stroke is important too. Not really based on experience but on common sense.