Regarding the back to *** turn in the IM, is it legal to grab the wall or top of the gutter when turning? I find that grabbing the wall helps in pulling the legs into the wall in preparation for pushing off. I read the rules on the backstroke and IM and did not see anything prohibiting this, but want to make sure before developing a habit. Also, any advice on a better way of making the turn is welcomed.
Grabbing is legal and a great way to get a gulp of air before your pullout. It is slower, though, than doing some kind of flip or spin turn. I find that I need the air and that I need the extra distance on my breaststroke pullout to compensate for my poor breaststroke swimming form, so I grab, gulp and go.
While it's legal, it's much slower than doing a normal touch and turn.
Patrick: You may think that you are getting a better push but actually you are working harder and getting less as grabbing the wall and collapsing towards it brings your legs much closer to the wall than desired and creates a much less than optimal knee angle at the start of your leg push. You want the inside angle at your knee to be slightly less than 90 degrees as this maximizes the power and speed of the push. An angle smaller than about 70 degrees has more power but is slow and an angle greater than 110 degrees has speed but little power.Yeah, I know you're right. I just want the extra AIR!
I think a spin or cross-over flip like in the Shanteau video is the right and fastest way to go ... but it definitely requires a lot of practice, particularly if you're going to employ it in a 400 IM.
Um, aren't you swimming backstroke into the turn??????? :angel:Yeah, but, with my breaststroke, I really need to minimize the time I'm swimming on top of the water and maximize my underwater pullout; I need all the air I can get.
While it's legal, it's much slower than doing a normal touch and turn.
Patrick: You may think that you are getting a better push but actually you are working harder and getting less as grabbing the wall and collapsing towards it brings your legs much closer to the wall than desired and creates a much less than optimal knee angle at the start of your leg push. You want the inside angle at your knee to be slightly less than 90 degrees as this maximizes the power and speed of the push. An angle smaller than about 70 degrees has more power but is slow and an angle greater than 110 degrees has speed but little power.
YES you may but sometimes there's no wall to grab
I do a flip over turn and it's the fastest for me
I touch the wall underwater on my back then flip my legs straight over
there's no question that I touch the wall on my back
YouTube- 2010 Masters SCY Nats 200 IM Men 45 to 49 1:58.20 NR
YouTube- MICHAEL PHELPS back/*** turn
Regarding the back to *** turn in the IM, is it legal to grab the wall or top of the gutter when turning? I find that grabbing the wall helps in pulling the legs into the wall in preparation for pushing off. I read the rules on the backstroke and IM and did not see anything prohibiting this, but want to make sure before developing a habit. Also, any advice on a better way of making the turn is welcomed.
Grabbing the wall is fine. As for better turn execution, I've been imitating this for the last few weeks:
YouTube- turn backstroke-breaststroke / virata dorso-rana
This style is slightly different, entering the wall sideways seems to be the most popular: YouTube- Eric Shanteau Back - *** Transition Turn
I plan on learning these newer styles, for now I'm still doing the old bucket turns. It takes a lot of practice to make it efficient regardless of which arm you're coming in with.
I wouldn't recommend this turn. More often than not you will end up too far from the wall to get a decent push-off.
I have done a couple hundred of these turns in the last few weeks and have only had that happen a few times, when I tried to anticipate the touch and started turning too early. Provided that I touch the wall before I start turning, I come out fine. Perhaps it helps that I have T-Rex arms. I never knew there was an upside until now! :banana:
YouTube- 2010 Masters SCY Nats 200 IM Men 45 to 49 1:58.20 NR
Gee, Ande, I wonder who shot that video of you at Nats... And, who the heck was that obnoxious voice :cheerleader: "Goooo Ande!!!" ???
:blush:
I have done a couple hundred of these turns in the last few weeks and have only had that happen a few times, when I tried to anticipate the touch and started turning too early. Provided that I touch the wall before I start turning, I come out fine. Perhaps it helps that I have T-Rex arms. I never knew there was an upside until now! :banana:
This turn has worked for me and I just started doing them recently. I get the same missed pushoff when I rush, or I go a little too deep when I don't flip fast enough, but all in all its been quite a nice transition versus the grab turn, and I fell I get a better pull out and no loss of air with this new turn.
