Swim smooth

I'm curious where you see a dropped elbow, I don't see it. I think he brings his elbows a little to far back on the recovery, the floppy hand during the recovery is a little exaggerated, he has a fairly deep pull, and the roll should be a little snappier. These points are all arguable, I would be quite pleased if my stroke were more like his. Actually dropped elbow along the arc was probably not a good way of saying it. Deep catch, as you said, is what I was trying to say. In other words, the whole arm, including the upper arm, comes down in a sort of arc before catching. I'm wondering if they are catering to us mortals with that type of catch, or do they believe it is more efficient in general.

I've seen some very fast distance swimmers who use the keyhole stroke. In this case there is an outward sweep during the catch that can provide some sculling propulsion. Mine is more straight back, so I feel little or no resistance during the catch and accelerate through the pull once the catch is anchored.

I guess I need to ask this individual if he applies or feels any pressure during is outward sweep.

The catch should indeed be unloaded. Contrary to a few opinion expressed on this site lately, the catch isn't meant to be propulsive. At best, you may try to maintain some of the propulsion generated by the opposite arm whilst catching. There are at least two very good reasons for this: 1) Shoulder Safety - Just like in the gym, it is not recommended to apply huge loads of pressure on shoulder articulation while the arm is still over the shoulder. 2) Fluidity - Due to its nature, water being a fluid, it's better to give some acceleration to your hand, from start to finish of the effective pulling range. Almost 0 velocity upon hand entry, little velocity on the catch then the acceleration continues all the way to the end. It's a myth for most, but certainly not for all. Maglischo has been very consistent over the last 3 decades in testing this, as well as explaining the how, the why, the when .... What swimtypes is trying to do, is to account for the fact that differences in morphology should call for differences in swim technique. They were, if I am not mistaking, the first to formalize this fact into nice packages and stuff. True, but they also include the pull in the "not feeling tremendous resistance" discussion. Here is the thing. The amount of resistance you feel depends on the force with which the water pushes back against your backward pulling forearm and hand. If you are swimming slowly, the water's drag forces are so little that you don't need to generate much force to maintain your speed, and thus the water doesn't push back much either. So it might not feel so solid to you on the pull. However, if you want to go super fast, you need tremendous force to offset the higher drag forces, and the water will feel much more resistant to that more forceful pull. So it seems to me that the resistance you feel from the water on a pull depends on how fast you are going and the force needed to maintain that speed. Please feel free to chime in.

2. This is really interesting. They say that on the catch, it is a myth that you should feel a huge amount of resistance with each pull. Here is the link; www.swimsmooth.com/catch.html The catch should indeed be unloaded. Contrary to a few opinion expressed on this site lately, the catch isn't meant to be propulsive. At best, you may try to maintain some of the propulsion generated by the opposite arm whilst catching. There are at least two very good reasons for this: 1) Shoulder Safety - Just like in the gym, it is not recommended to apply huge loads of pressure on shoulder articulation while the arm is still over the shoulder. 2) Fluidity - Due to its nature, water being a fluid, it's better to give some acceleration to your hand, from start to finish of the effective pulling range. Almost 0 velocity upon hand entry, little velocity on the catch then the acceleration continues all the way to the end. It's a myth for most, but certainly not for all. Maglischo has been very consistent over the last 3 decades in testing this, as well as explaining the how, the why, the when .... I wonder what you guys think about the site, as well as the Mr. Smooth demonstrator's stroke. What swimtypes is trying to do, is to account for the fact that differences in morphology should call for differences in swim technique. They were, if I am not mistaking, the first to formalize this fact into nice packages and stuff.

Actually dropped elbow along the arc was probably not a good way of saying it. Deep catch, as you said, is what I was trying to say. In other words, the whole arm, including the upper arm, comes down in a sort of arc before catching. I'm wondering if they are catering to us mortals with that type of catch, or do they believe it is more efficient in general. They explain their reasoning here: www.swimsmooth.com/catch_adv.html A quick summary: A conventional catch technique is much more achievable for those with non-elite skill levels and carries a much lower injury risk.

I've seen some very fast distance swimmers who use the keyhole stroke. In this case there is an outward sweep during the catch that can provide some sculling propulsion. It is virtually impossible to obtain propulsion from sculling while swimming reasonably fast freestyle. With water flowing past your hand at 2m/s you would have to scull at unreasonable speed and/or the angle of attack would have to be adjusted so that the vast majority of effort would be wasted in sideways forces. These swimmers are almost assuredly positioning their hand rather than sculling with it. Breaststroke is a different issue as the speed can drop quite low, still for the most part what is called sculling is actually just a positioning of the hands for the catch. The angle of attack is mostly to reduce drag during this positioning rather than being propulsive.

One thing to keep in mind with the SwimSmooth site is that they concentrate on distance freestyle. If your swimming distance free you shouldn't be exerting tremendous forces. That said, there are limits to how much force you can exert on water before it simply flows around you. That's why it's important to distribute the force over a large surface. Ah, but that is another thread... As a cheap illustration of the problems with trying to exert large forces on fluids, consider that air is a fluid, try to apply a tremendous force against the air. You need to be very fast! Water is more viscous than air but the principle is the same.

1. The Mr. Smooth demonstrator bends his wrist to initiate the catch, and ultimately the elbow drops along the arc. Are they perhaps just being realists for most of us? I had sent a video of myself to Glen Mills (from GoSwim), and he suggested that I not "scoop" with my hands to initiate the catch. I'm curious where you see a dropped elbow, I don't see it. I think he brings his elbows a little to far back on the recovery, the floppy hand during the recovery is a little exaggerated, he has a fairly deep pull, and the roll should be a little snappier. These points are all arguable, I would be quite pleased if my stroke were more like his.

I've seen some very fast distance swimmers who use the keyhole stroke. I sweep, or use sculling as part of my stroke. Or at the very least, my hand pitch varies throughout the pulling range. If you add body rotation to this which creates lateral deviations, you get sweeping movements, which hopefully adds some lift forces to the propulsive forces. So it seems to me that the resistance you feel from the water on a pull depends on how fast you are going and the force needed to maintain that speed. We weren't discussing about the amount of resistance felt on a pull, but rather about the level of resistance on the catch. In my humble opinion, this varies a lot based on timing. The faster the speed, the shorter (in term of time) the catch. If you're late in catching, then it leaves less time to complete the pull and usually, this translated into more load being put on catch. That said, there are limits to how much force you can exert on water before it simply flows around you. And that limit gradually goes away as you progress into your pulling path. The high pressure zone under the palm of the hand build up progressively, as the hand accelerates throughout the pulling range.