Myth #4: The reason you keep the elbows high on the underwater pull is to increase power.
I hear this often from both coaches and swimmers. When one looks at the underwater shots of the world's fastest swimmers, sprint or distance, one finds the recurring position of high underwater elbow, also called Early Vertical Forearm (EVF). The elbows are not just high, they are unusually high...almost in a contorted position with extreme extension (negative angle) of the shoulder joint, particularly when coupled with the body rotation in the opposite direction. it begs the question, can one really be stronger in this almost contorted position? I believe the answer is no. To test this, one can go in the gym and using the Free Motion pulleys, that many gyms now have, pull as much weight down with your arm relatively straight forward, then try it with your arm at the side, shoulder extended and elbow up. You will not be able to pull as much weight in that position. With the shoulder fully extended (negative angle), it is simply not in a good mechanical position of strength.
So if this weird high elbow position is not about power, what is it about? Drag. By changing the position of the arm as it moves through the pull cycle, one can reduce the drag coefficient significantly...not eliminate it. To prove this, kick with fins all out for 25 yards extending one arm above the head and the other straight down toward the bottom of the pool. You will soon learn how significant the drag of your protruding arm becomes when it is at right angles to your long axis. In fact, you will have to work to keep the arm in the position and with any speed at all, it will shake in the water like a palm tree in a hurricane in the Keys. Now try the same drill, but instead of putting your arm straight down, let it protrude straight out to the side but bend the arm 90 degrees at the elbow, as if you were swimming with a high elbow. You will feel considerably less drag in this position. Same arm...different position...a lot less drag.
Now I realize that this is not quite the same as while swimming, when only the upper part of the arm is moving forward throughout nearly the entire underwater part of the pull cycle (In order to cause frontal resistive drag, the object must be moving forward). However, the upper arm is also the largest part of the arm and changing it's orientation in the water also reduces the drag coefficient. Achieving an EVF is simply maintaining the upper arm in a position closest to the line of motion and thus creates the least frontal drag.
The good news is that most coaches are telling you the same thing, pull with your elbows high underwater. Now you know the real reason.
Gary Sr
Former Member
Course. Let me just get in touch with the colleague I used to work with, and I may be able to get the complete program. Could take a week or two but I won't forget.
- - -
I have two questions. One for the theoretician participating to the thread, and one open at large
1. If high elbow main benefit is to cut drag, could the results be seen in term of stroke count? (or is it so minimal that it can't even be seen)
2. Has anyone capable of switching from EVF to a more conventional way of swimming the Free noticed any impact on distance per stroke?
DPS has to do with several factors; propulsive power of the arms and legs, frontal drag, the stabilizing force of the hip/core/leg turn, how long one holds the hand in front and how far one pushes out the back. DPS does not determine who wins the race, however.
Eamonn Sullivan takes 38 strokes in 50 meters in 21.2 seconds, while Phelps may take 30 strokes to swim the same 50 meters but probably the fastest he goes is 22 low. Phelps has greater DPS...but is not as fast.
In distance events, you see some swimmers with high stroke rates (Cochrane, Davies, Bennett, Pellegrini, Babashoff etc etc) and lower DPS and others with much higher DPS (Hackett, Mellouli, Thorpe, Hoff etc) and slower stroke rates. Not always clear who wins....but I can assure you that all of the high DPS swimmers have very strong kicks.
The EVF position has the effect of reducing propulsive power and drag...so the effect on DPS may not be clear...assuming all other factors remain the same.
Gary Sr.
I always assumed that the advantage of EVF was efficiency. Even if a swimmer had the same DPS and SR swimming either style their aerobic/anaerobic threshold might be at a higher speed with EVF. On the other hand it's possible their peak speed over a shorter distance might be slower using EVF.
It seems plausible that the EVF swimmer gets through front quadrant with a lower energy expenditure but loses more velocity while a non-EVF swimmer gets through the front quadrant in less time with a higher energy cost and less loss of speed.
It does seem plausible that an EVF stroke loses its efficiency if you try and speed it up, by, for example, trying to put effort into decreasing the time spent in the front quadrant.
The EVF position has the effect of reducing propulsive power and drag...so the effect on DPS may not be clear...assuming all other factors remain the same.
I echo SolarEnergy's question. Swimming speed (m/s) is determined solely by DPS (m/stroke) and stroke rate (stroke/s). The trade-off between the two is apparent in comparing people like Phelps and Sullivan.
If the effect of EVF on DPS are neutral, then for it to be clearly superior to "conventional" freestyle it must be that adopting EVF increases stroke rate. Is that the case? Or is it just that successfully adopting EVF is indicated by an improvement in DPS?
The EVF position has the effect of reducing propulsive power and drag...so the effect on DPS may not be clear...assuming all other factors remain the same. Other than on DPS, which effects as you say might not be clear, how can the beneficial impacts of EVF could be seen or monitored?
More at the stroke rate level?
yep. We're on the exact same page Chris.
One thing I'd like to remind Gary about. We could not care less about the overall power being generated by the swimmer using a deeper vs shallower catch and pulling style.
What we care about is the portion of this power that benefit forward propulsion. I have very hard time to believe that the portion of the power that contributes to forward propulsion would drop when using EVF. But it ain't my thread so I'll just read Gary's next post with great interest, hoping that my skepticism will not put him on the defense mode too too much.
I'd still looooove to see any of the EVF proponents' execution of this technique in some footage though. Lots of talk about EVF, but yet no footage whatsoever, other than the same old Hackett Phelps etc....
I will post my execution of it in a short while. As soon as I get the permission to perform underwater footage. It is a technique which I can master to a large extent, yet, I am not impressed by what I can achieve using it, compared to a more conventional technique. I posted a few example of this more conventional technique a few times so far.
One last thing with which I strongly, very strongly disagree again with Gary. The top 3 priorities in reducing drag are definitely not EVF EVF and EVF.
In my own swim book, body position would get the gold on this podium. Followed by leg kicking action (huge source of drag) and maybe.... EVF.
You could swim perfect EVF mate, if the body position isn't perfectly optimal, you're missing a big point.
I always assumed that the advantage of EVF was efficiency. Even if a swimmer had the same DPS and SR swimming either style their aerobic/anaerobic threshold might be at a higher speed with EVF. But higher speed can only be achieve with either an increase in DPS, SR or both.
On the other hand it's possible their peak speed over a shorter distance might be slower using EVF. Here slower (assuming compared to with a more conventional stroke) would mean a decrease in either or both.
It seems plausible that the EVF swimmer gets through front quadrant with a lower energy expenditure but loses more velocity while a non-EVF swimmer gets through the front quadrant in less time with a higher energy cost and less loss of speed. Possible.
In fact, my question is more of a practical one. The other day when I tried to EVF more than usual, my basic aerobic pace dropped. And that was mainly due to DPS that dropped to unprecedented level. 18str per 25 at such a slow pace would usually mean I bunked or something. Would usually go home.
Probably that a severe drop in power had made every stroke less powerful. Drop in speed altered body position. Presumed benefit on drag was therefore counterbalanced by increased drag from lower body I don't know. I was slow and inefficient. Doesn't mean much, it was a first try after all. It's just that it wasn't Klondike for me. Not as obvious as: "hey wow, this drop in drag resulted into an instant increase in DPS which in turn gave me more speed.", hence my question to Gary. And his answer is definitely consistent with the result of my experiment. Not clear the benefits on DPS, which surprises me since usually, and drop in drag means an increase in DPS.
Note that I am not trying to do a Quadrant Analysis (QA), although it does have its use. I'm staying more at the practical level, tracking changes in things I can easily monitor (time/dps). That's pretty much how I work when changing things. Tells me if I shot the target or not.
I know I may sound reluctant and at the limit provocative. But altering a stroke for me is like altering a golf swing. It has some implications. So the question I have been wondering about lately is: Assuming non EVF to EVF is a continuum, how much of it should I aim for for optimal performance injury free? As much as I can put or is my stroke ok as it is now?
Yourself for instance? I do you answer this question for yourself? Are you trying to pour as much as you can EVF or do you rather aim for a compromise?
Hi Charles,
I may be muddled but it seems to me that it is possible for two swimmers to be swimming at the same speed, the same dps, the same sr, but for one of them to be expending more energy. For example one is kicking like crazy to maintain the same dps and sr as the other. It seems to me that it is possible that the speed they are both swimming at may be aerobic for one and anaerobic for the other.
Personally I'm not currently working on EVF. For now I am working on removing the deadspot at the front of my stroke, bending my elbows more for a shallower pull, and trying to coordinate everything to achieve a smooth flowing rhythm.
I suspect that the Swim Smooth folks are right that extreme EVF is for people with more flexibility, better coordination, and less delicate shoulders than I. I've got lots of things to improve before going there. Remember that Hackett ended up needing shoulder surgery.
I have improved the distance per stroke quite considerably so far when adding a lot of EVF to the stroke.
I detected an issue with the non breathing side arm, which I am improving by focusing on 1-Arm drill, breathing on the non stroking arm.
I am also working on something little more difficult to solve: the passing of the elbow. This transition during which the elbow passes underneath the body to allow for optimal push.
I find it more difficult to preform this passing of the elbow when adding more EVF than usual. This may in part explain why some swimmers could generate more torque in the FQ compared to the BQ. In my case, this passing seems to occur too late for being able to use upward body rotation to support the last third of effective pulling range.
But getting there though... and it feels pretty natural too, at least the front quadrant portion most definitely.
Should be able to post footage including UW ones soon.
I echo SolarEnergy's question. Swimming speed (m/s) is determined solely by DPS (m/stroke) and stroke rate (stroke/s). The trade-off between the two is apparent in comparing people like Phelps and Sullivan.
If the effect of EVF on DPS are neutral, then for it to be clearly superior to "conventional" freestyle it must be that adopting EVF increases stroke rate. Is that the case? Or is it just that successfully adopting EVF is indicated by an improvement in DPS?
EVF can be and is used by great swimmers with or without high stroke rate. Hackett for example uses extremely high EVF with relatively low stroke rate (hip driven freestyle). Cielo uses extremely high elbow with fast stroke rate (shoulder driven). The deeper arm pull has greater power but more frontal drag. The EVF position and high elbow sweep has lower power and less frontal drag. The ideal position is hard to determine because it may depend on each swimmers ability to generate power in the EVF position (requiring extreme ability to extend the shoulder joint). Does EVF lead to greater vulnerability to shoulder injury? A good and interesting question. I do not know the answer.
Gary
EVF can be and is used by great swimmers with or without high stroke rate. Hackett for example uses extremely high EVF with relatively low stroke rate (hip driven freestyle). Cielo uses extremely high elbow with fast stroke rate (shoulder driven). The deeper arm pull has greater power but more frontal drag. The EVF position and high elbow sweep has lower power and less frontal drag. The ideal position is hard to determine because it may depend on each swimmers ability to generate power in the EVF position (requiring extreme ability to extend the shoulder joint). Does EVF lead to greater vulnerability to shoulder injury? A good and interesting question. I do not know the answer.
Gary
To continue to:dedhorse: I still question your more frontal drag in the deeper pull paradigm.After doing several experiments on myself to grossly measure the drag forces on my arms in a very crude way I have come to the conclusion that it is possible that the upper arm has some anti-propulsive drag,but that this is minimal compared to the rest of the body's form drag.I hypothesize that this is because the upper arm is actually moving very little in the water whereas the body is moving a great deal.I believe Rtodd is right that the smoother application of force is a big advantage of EVF .The deeper pull may generate more force at times and so benefit some sprinters where force may trump efficiency,but past a sprint traditional EVF will be better for most.
