Myth #4: The reason you keep the elbows high on the underwater pull is to increase power.
I hear this often from both coaches and swimmers. When one looks at the underwater shots of the world's fastest swimmers, sprint or distance, one finds the recurring position of high underwater elbow, also called Early Vertical Forearm (EVF). The elbows are not just high, they are unusually high...almost in a contorted position with extreme extension (negative angle) of the shoulder joint, particularly when coupled with the body rotation in the opposite direction. it begs the question, can one really be stronger in this almost contorted position? I believe the answer is no. To test this, one can go in the gym and using the Free Motion pulleys, that many gyms now have, pull as much weight down with your arm relatively straight forward, then try it with your arm at the side, shoulder extended and elbow up. You will not be able to pull as much weight in that position. With the shoulder fully extended (negative angle), it is simply not in a good mechanical position of strength.
So if this weird high elbow position is not about power, what is it about? Drag. By changing the position of the arm as it moves through the pull cycle, one can reduce the drag coefficient significantly...not eliminate it. To prove this, kick with fins all out for 25 yards extending one arm above the head and the other straight down toward the bottom of the pool. You will soon learn how significant the drag of your protruding arm becomes when it is at right angles to your long axis. In fact, you will have to work to keep the arm in the position and with any speed at all, it will shake in the water like a palm tree in a hurricane in the Keys. Now try the same drill, but instead of putting your arm straight down, let it protrude straight out to the side but bend the arm 90 degrees at the elbow, as if you were swimming with a high elbow. You will feel considerably less drag in this position. Same arm...different position...a lot less drag.
Now I realize that this is not quite the same as while swimming, when only the upper part of the arm is moving forward throughout nearly the entire underwater part of the pull cycle (In order to cause frontal resistive drag, the object must be moving forward). However, the upper arm is also the largest part of the arm and changing it's orientation in the water also reduces the drag coefficient. Achieving an EVF is simply maintaining the upper arm in a position closest to the line of motion and thus creates the least frontal drag.
The good news is that most coaches are telling you the same thing, pull with your elbows high underwater. Now you know the real reason.
Gary Sr
Former Member
In your experiment with fins comparing drag between a) straight arm pointed straight down, and b) upper arm pointed out to the side and forearm pointed toward the bottom, I would suggest that the lower effort in the bent arm case is due to leverage rather than reduced drag. With the straight arm the drag force is applied at a greater distance from the lever pivot (your shoulder) so you need a greater force from your muscles to counteract it, even though the total drag is the same.
My understanding of the importance of a high elbow is that it gives you a "larger paddle" (more effective anchor) than a dropped elbow. The effective size of your paddle/anchor is the backward facing profile. With a dropped elbow, as illustrated in the right arm in the attached image, the forearm has a relatively small backward profile. With a high elbow the forearm would be more vertical and present a larger backward facing profile.
The high elbow position may not be optimal for applying power but it is a more effective anchor than a dropped elbow would be.
Have I got this wrong?
I agree with Lindsay.The EVF provides more propulsion because it provides a greater surface to anchor.The upper arm may be providing drag,but since it is closer to the body the lever arm is much smaller, making it's effect much less than the greater paddle/anchor effect.
I generally agree with Gary's stroke recommendations,but have had problems with the analogies.I have decided it's because they don't distinguish between propulsive and drag surfaces.As another analogy,imagine a row boat with a motor.While the motor is moving the boat forward put the oars in the water vertically to the boat(maximum drag.) The boat will slow down.Now turn the oars around and put the handles in the water.The boat slows,but not as much.By confusing drag and propulsive surfaces you have just "proved"that the way to row a boat is with the handles in the water.Again Gary's recommendations re:EVF,head position,body position etc.are fine,it's his hypotheses I question.That does raise the interesting conundrum of "whats the matter with doing it right for the wrong reasons?"I have ideas about that,but they are too inchoate to describe yet.
That does raise the interesting conundrum of "whats the matter with doing it right for the wrong reasons?"I have ideas about that,but they are too inchoate to describe yet.
Let me push this concept little further. I may very well end up alone in my camp though....
Skin, sense of touch, noise caused by forward velocity. A good swimmer can listen to all this. Analogy I often use is that swimmers progresses in the water with hundreds of sensors returning feed back about variation in speed, feeling of drag etc.... I know it sounds esoteric, but it explains the deep respect I have for the ways swimmers usually end up to solve this mysterious equation of swimming.
Anyway, popularity of shaving in prep for an important meet kinds of reinforce this belief (AFAIC of course). You shall believe in this or not, but for a breaststroker I think it is always turned on and you guys listen to these feelings in guiding you as for the timing to use between kick and pull. Magnitude of the glide iow.
Back to the topic of the thread. The discomfort I have in regards to Gary's position, is that I couldn't find any distinction as to the ratio between propulsive and drag forces.
If the arm while taking the catch is doing so while attempting to maintain the forward velocity (ref: Popov's famous clip), then we may assume that the sum of propulsive forces equate, or surpass that of drag forces. If so, it is indeed for a different reason that we try to raise the elbow, since drag is defacto ruled out of the equation. And anyway, in sprinting context, downsweep creates good share of lift, becomes very difficult to make the drag vs lift vs propulsive ratio analysis.
As for the analogy, there again I have a discomfort. Easier to pull up, or chin up with the arm bent. In other words, if I was to attempt a single arm pull up in the gym, my first idea would be to bend the arm. (Then of course I may drop the elbow a bit ;-)
But following this line of thought. If it's better to bend the arm for pulling up, flipped in a horizontal position, it's better to pull forward with higher elbow to increase, as the others have suggested, propulsive surface. Killing two birds with one stone, but doing so in a way not to be injured (ambition being the last refuge of failure).
In this context, drag force is negative.
To clarifyDon't know about others but I can load much more weight on a lat pulldown with elbows down.It was in regard to whether or not EVF provides better propulsive leverage.
evf provides less drag.
Don't know about others but I can load much more weight on a lat pulldown with elbows down.
What SolarEnergy is saying is that, unlike swimming, though, the lat pulldown doesn't reward you with increased propulsive surface if you keep your elbows up. It isn't a perfect analogy because in a lat pulldown you only apply power at the point where you are holding the bar, not through the whole forearm as in EVF.
I agree that EVF provides less drag, though.
I also agree that Gary's analogies aren't always perfectly apt. However, I think possibly he is using them to *explain* his points rather than *prove* them. I hope there is more sophisticated data available for that (and I'd like to see it).
Would you also agree that it can only provide less drag as long as it provides no propulsive forces? In the exact same time I mean?
If so that yields the question. At which point does the forearm transitions from creating drag (if it indeed creates any) to generating propulsive forces? (and as a sub question how deep is the hand when that switch occurs, but I don't want to shed too much confusion)
I don't think the drag comes from the forearm, which moves as fast or faster than the surrounding water, but from the upper arm. By limiting its exposure it decreases drag. As Gary said, forward motion is necessary to create opposing drag, and I don't think the forearm is moving forward relative to the surrounding water, at least not in the front quadrant.
I think a good analogy would be this. Go to the edge of the pool in the deep section, put your hands flat on the edge, and let your body sink. Now pull yourself up as if doing a butterfly pull; once from close to the edge (elbows "high"), once from farther (dropped elbow). The difference in power is unmistakeable. The other thing about a high elbow is greater reach, your catch is farther ahead, no?
Don't know about others but I can load much more weight on a lat pulldown with elbows down.
i don't think this analogy does anything to either prove or disprove that evf reduces drag....
