To go back to the original article and possible implications for workout design...
For 50/100 specialists, is there any benefit to building long aerobic swims into a workout? So far it has been pointed out that even the 100 has a significant aerobic component, but Rich's article seemed to indicate that aerobic capacity seemed to best be developed by interval work, with the best tested being four minutes intense and four minutes recovery four times through. The 15seconds on, 15 seconds recovery regimen also outperformed long slow distance in building aerobic capacity.
Should typical aerobic pace swimming be consigned to recovery and working on technique?
Has anyone tried the four minute approach in swim training? The 15 second approach?
This is a bit off topic, but certainly :rofl:-worthy...
YouTube- Bike with engine (doped bike) and Cancellara (Roubaix - Vlaanderen)"]www.youtube.com/watch Bike with engine (doped bike) and Cancellara (Roubaix - Vlaanderen)YouTube- Bike with engine (doped bike) and Cancellara (Roubaix - Vlaanderen)
content.usatoday.com/.../1
I was afraid we were going to see the special technique for exposing yourself to the wind.:bolt:
To go back to the original article and possible implications for workout design...
For 50/100 specialists, is there any benefit to building long aerobic swims into a workout? So far it has been pointed out that even the 100 has a significant aerobic component, but Rich's article seemed to indicate that aerobic capacity seemed to best be developed by interval work, with the best tested being four minutes intense and four minutes recovery four times through. The 15seconds on, 15 seconds recovery regimen also outperformed long slow distance in building aerobic capacity.
Should typical aerobic pace swimming be consigned to recovery and working on technique?
Has anyone tried the four minute approach in swim training? The 15 second approach?
Hey Lindsay,
When I first started reading the forums, there was a guy by the name of Jazz Hands who professed to only training sprint work. His workouts were only sprints or recovery, no aerobic at all. I went and tracked down his original posts about the topic because they were getting a lot of reference, mostly being made fun of. I think you will have a tough time finding it now, because last I checked, the "statistics" page only showed the 500 most recent posts by an individual, and I think he would have posted this in 2008 or 2007.
That is not exactly an example of 15 on 15 but as close as I can think of. I have a tough time thinking that anyone would do 4 minutes on 4 minutes off unless it was disguised as an interval set of 3x125 on 1:20, 3x50 on 1:20, or whatever would be barely makeable for the first half. Anyone who would endure 4 minutes of near max pace wouldn't be the same person to take 4 minutes rest sitting on the wall. :)
I too would love to hear any stories if anyone has tried something similar.
First, a 100m specialist probably doesn't need the maximal dose of vo2max training development. And this workout (above) is pretty much the maximal does. It relates more to 200/400 specialists really. A good variation for a sprinter (100m) could be 5 x (400 then 300 then 200 then 100 then 50). The 3 first bouts allows to reach his aerobic capacity, the 100 his anaerobic capacity, and well. The 50 that's for desert. Of course, all bouts (400,300...) are done at max possible avg speed over the distance. There's no 90% or 95% there. Got to blast these.
While this may make some energy sense it doesn't seem like a good set for 100 swimmers because it doesn't spend enough time at 100 pace.Since want to race the 50,100,and 200 BR I need to train all 3 at race pace which i do on different days.My favorite set on my 100 race pace days is 10X200 on about 4 min.The first 50 is at my 100 goal time(my planned 2nd 50 split) and 150 recovery.The reason it is "about" 4 min. is that I want to allow enough rest to make the goal time so some days I rest more some less.I assume that doing race pace work taxes the proper energy systems.
An interesting set I read about is 25s on the 30,sprinting the first 4 strokes,then recover the rest.The idea is to work the CP and aerobic systems and not the anaerobic system so you can get a lot of sprinting in without being limited by lactic acid.I tried it and it just felt too weird,but it may be good for some.
I didn't do any "traditional" swim training at all this year (actually, had very little pool time at all, and most of that was drills and speed work).
Ended up dropping a half second in my 50 time from Austin -- a time when I trained much more traditionally and was in much better aerobic shape. It was actually the fastest I've gone since college in the 80's.
Sure, but people have been known to get upset, create fake accounts, and start fights about definitions, etc when I start using math, so I try to avoid it now. Thanks a lot for the info. I'll get one of my friend specialized in physics to dum it down for me. Appreciated.
What do cyclists think they spend all their energy on? You really have nothing to worry about for these folks, in the context of this 90hours event. Talking about 120000 calories roughly.
They just behave like birds. But you knew that already I believe. When they're grouped, they work together, all the time. Their solution this air drag resistance issue just work together like birds do. And yes, that makes the sport dangerous. Maybe little more trivial that you'd think but still very dangerous.
Yet, the highest number of deaths during triathlon events occur in the water.
As for the importance of cutting drag in a time trial context, well they go in wind tunnel for this sort of analysis. Plus they use power data (once again) to optimize their Cda. So they're aware. Q, these teams' budget (pro teams that is) is far over that of swim teams.
Problem, like I said, is that when a rider wants to break away from the pack, he doesn't have the equipment to ride aero. And I find that the pure road bike aren't well adapted for these situations, with a handle bar that is way to wide, making riding in the drops not as aero that one would wish.
For 50/100 specialists, is there any benefit to building long aerobic swims into a workout? Yes. The benefits are manifold, even for 50m specialists. As long as it doesn't interfere with the core of the program, the portion aimed at building anaerobic power.
So far it has been pointed out that even the 100 has a significant aerobic component Quite simple here. If it's getting you completely out of breath before the end of the event, then there's a significant aerobic component to it.
Should typical aerobic pace swimming be consigned to recovery and working on technique? No. Or let's put is this way. All base mileage should be seen as an opportunity to improve technical aspects, when not used for recovering. For example, in the case of a freestyle specialist, there's always a few critical phases in the stroke, such as high elbow catch, efficiency (and role) of the arm non breathing side. We all loose a fair bit of water there. A question may be about kicking timing. Not a bad idea to make it six beat. All 2beat base mileage done on a severe stroke count diet. Etc...
Other examples? A 100 back specalist performing free base mileage. Why not sdking a lot so you increase volume of sdk quite a lot. There's always something good that can come out of base mileage. As a coach, suffice to explain what we expect, sort of outside of the box thinking.
Has anyone tried the four minute approach in swim training? The 15 second approach? No. This may work. It may make the sets longer but on the other hand, it may help preserve a better technique throughout the set, and it may add a slight neuromuscular power sort of touch to it. The downside though, is that it will take longer to reach your max o2 peak, if you keep stopping every 15sec for 15sec.
In the cycling world, I'd say that most of the time, the usual typical vo2max development interval format is very simple: 5x5min, max sustainable power over the duration. You reach your max hr (minus 2 or 3 beats) during every of these. The equivalent in swimming would be 5x400, best possible effort. Rest, unlimited. Limited by time available for the workout. Rest can and should be active, not passive. So a swimming set would look as follow:
5 x
| 400 fast on 6 minutes (given you perform the bout in 5min roughly)
| 50m backstroke very relaxed on 1:30
| 50m kick very relaxed on 1:30
| 100 very relaxed, stroke of your choice on 3
Total set duration : 60min
Time spent at Vo2Max : 15min (5x3min)
Now, some may be thinking, are you crazy dammit? No.
First, a 100m specialist probably doesn't need the maximal dose of vo2max training development. And this workout (above) is pretty much the maximal does. It relates more to 200/400 specialists really. A good variation for a sprinter (100m) could be 5 x (400 then 300 then 200 then 100 then 50). The 3 first bouts allows to reach his aerobic capacity, the 100 his anaerobic capacity, and well. The 50 that's for desert. Of course, all bouts (400,300...) are done at max possible avg speed over the distance. There's no 90% or 95% there. One may miss the max part of vo2max if committing into sub max efforts.
Do you train alone, in a squad, or mix of both?
15% with a squad.
15% with one training partner
70% alone, although some of this is one-on-one with a coach.
Here's a simple proposal guys.
Your aerobic/anaerobic balance =
Log(T1/T2) / Log(D1/D2)
Where T1 and T2 are two personal best times expressed in seconds for two different distances, D1 and D2.
Compute yours, and compare it with what it was last year, next year, later in the season etc.... Then compare it to your idols'.
Let's get some butterfly representation in here... all LCM... for myself: my 100 time from 2008 Portland Nationals (1:04.65) and my 200 time from 2009 NW LCM Zones (2:25.76). For Michael Phelps, his WR's from 2009 Worlds in Rome (49.82 & 1:51.51). For Dennis Baker, the fastest times I could find from his attempts to make Olympic Trials in 2008 at age 46 (58.16 & 2:04.07).
Dennis Baker: 1.093
Michael Phelps: 1.162
That Guy: 1.173
