How much air resistance is experienced by a cyclist over the Tour de France? Around a thousand times less than what you're experimenting against water whilst swimming.
We are comparing fundamental training methods between a sport where the biggest race is close to 90 hours long and a sport where the biggest event is currently under 21 seconds for the winners. Not sure I get your comparison here. Is the biggest even in swimming really currently under 21sec (50m) or under 15min (1500)?
This seems silly to me, but this might explain that triathletes typically have very strong swim legs or very weak swim legs when compared to their entire race. If you train for all 3 legs using the same methodology, you are training incorrectly for at least one of the legs. which is the case for the majority (+50%) of all tris in my humble opinion. Not that much because of event duration per se, but rather because of the highly technical nature of swimming.
We all know what Economy is right? Well believe it or not, it is commonly stated in the Cycling community that Economy can not be improve. Wow. That statement sounds very arch to my swim coach ears. I usually don't argue though. Do you know how they solve their distance per stroke issue? Shifting up a gear. Their feet is clipped. No energy loss, no slipping. Really, cycling is very very easy, technically speaking. Only gains in Economy pertains to achieving a better power/aero compromise for time trialing.
So among the 3 disciplines, there's only the swim that can significantly be improved as a consequence of improved Economy. Those tris who ignore this fact, those diesel Energiser Rabits showing up on the deck with their gizmos and stuff, always swimming the same way the same pace day in day out will probably continue dreaming to bring their 1500 down U25. With smart swim training, that goal rapidly becomes their warm up pace.
Finally, all allusions to cycling (coming from me in this thread) were made with both roadies and trackies in mind. They race the 500 (around 37sec) the kilo (around a 1:05) etc.... And to add to their complexity, they can't dive. They won't reach their maximal speed off the block like us. They use a fix gear bike with no brakes on. And they must build their speed 1mph at the time. Neuromuscular demand is therefore much greater than for us. Alex Simmon is a well know aussie cycling coach that specializes in using power to train trackies. Recently broke the world record over the hour (indoor) with one of his masters.
alex-cycle.blogspot.com/
Coggan's wife is also a trackie. To the best of my knowledge, he used her a lot to test his TSS model.
Here. An example found on Alex's blog about the serious these cyclists put in putting numbers on concepts.
In this blog entry, Alex is describing the intimate relationship that exists between aerobic and anaerobic capacities. Shows how one can get you to know about the other. The core of this article teaches you how to use power to estimate your max accumulated o2 deficit, thus your anaerobic capacity. Note that with a bunch of old equations, suggested by Toussain I believe, the same analysis could probably be done for swimmers, if only swim coaches had a mere interest in quantifying their theories instead of writing generic articles that won't commit to provide numbers.
In other words, these guys can monitor when too much aerobic capacity work could impair their sprinting abilities, as they progress into their season by assessing on a regular basis their estimated max accumulated o2 deficit.
(warning: That's hardcore explicit content ;-)
alex-cycle.blogspot.com/.../darth-vader-rides-teams-pursuit.html
That said though. Cycling coaches (at least the good ones) are mystified by swim coaches. They think we really rock. We are often quoted as being the bests of the bests in training athletes on Intervals. Often, in documents that describe the evolution of cycling coaching, swimming world is quoted for having had a major influence on this evolution. I've seen Coggan being proud of explaining that he sometimes train on send off intervals, and that it was a very good way to train aerobic's higher edge on an indoor trainer (to break the boredom whilst making sure you'd stay in the Zone). I've also read Jack Daniels (famous running coach) mentioning that his cruise interval training system was directly inspired by how swim coaches work.
How much air resistance is experienced by a cyclist over the Tour de France?
Around a thousand times less than what you're experimenting against water whilst swimming.
You are close on the differences between air and water densities. Air resistance is dependent on velocity and the size of the object facing the resistance. The difference isn't 1000x, but closer to 2x. Given the length of bike races, the power needed to overcome air resistance should be a concern similar to swimmers concern for water resistance.
I think technique is part of it, but a more important factor is natural ability-genetics. Previous elite swimmers rose to their elite status over a multitude of others who worked as hard and had excellent technique. There are some people who are able to do things that the rest of us can't. I think this is true in any sport. Hard work can help you achieve your potential, but I think everyone has a different potential. There are some people that I swim with/against that will never swim as fast as me - there are many people that I swim with/against that I will never be able to keep up with (at least not consistently).
Hey no200fly, I would probably consider you elite. To me it is anyone who trained throughout college at a serious program.
I do agree with you that genetics play a roll on who can and cannot medal at the Olympics, but I don't think it limits most people who would want to swim in college.
You are close on the differences between air and water densities. Air resistance is dependent on velocity and the size of the object facing the resistance. The difference isn't 1000x, but closer to 2x. Sorry Q. I realized my mistake afterward and whilst walking back from tonight's session, I was anxious to post an edit. Sorry again.
I am still unsure about how you end up with 2x though. Could you explain?
But for these folks, getting more aero is achieved by improving the position, and the equipment. Technique has relatively little to do about it.
That said, for a few years now, we have seen pro riders on Grand Tours that break out from the pack, thus exposing themselves to the wind, using a special technique. They just pose their wrists on top of the handle bar for achieving a position similar to that obtained with time trial bike equipment.
I tried it. I even got my handle bar tapes modified for better grip (if we can call that a grip). It's a kph toll free. And a full kilo per hour is Huge when time trialing, or escaping. So you would think it's a technique, that most should learn? I'd answer that most cycling coaches will discourage you doing this. They consider that these pro riders should not be copied. Too dangerous. The techie that modified my tapes, a former cycling coach, old Italian fart thought I was crazy, didn't want to do it at first.
So we swim coach see opportunities for technical improvement more easily than our cycling counterparts it seems. Except maybe at a high level, but I am not sure that the directive to hold their handle bar this way comes from their coach.
I have enjoyed this discussion.
If Lance had a identical twin who trained in swimming as much and as hard as his twin brother did in cycling, and both of their bases were equal, would the swimmer Lance be competitive in cycling? Since cycling isn't as much of a technique sport as swimming, shouldn't there be a greater ease in switching sports for the swimmer Lance?
I guess this is specificity of sport question.
we have seen pro riders on Grand Tours that break out from the pack, thus exposing themselves to the wind, using a special technique.
This is a bit off topic, but certainly :rofl:-worthy...
YouTube- Bike with engine (doped bike) and Cancellara (Roubaix - Vlaanderen)"]www.youtube.com/watch Bike with engine (doped bike) and Cancellara (Roubaix - Vlaanderen)YouTube- Bike with engine (doped bike) and Cancellara (Roubaix - Vlaanderen)
content.usatoday.com/.../1
What do cyclists think they spend all their energy on?
Most cyclists spend the majority of their energy scheming on ways to buy another bike without disrupting total family harmony. That is a much greater force than either wind or water resistance.
I do agree with you that genetics play a roll on who can and cannot medal at the Olympics, but I don't think it limits most people who would want to swim in college.
I will give you an example of the other side of the natural ability coin. There is a guy who started swimming occasionally with our team in September of last year. He swam for two years when he was 10 and not since then. He is now 50. He can only make it to 2 or 3 workouts a week, but he does yoga daily. He is down to 1 pack of cigarettes a day.
Two months after he began swimming, he swam at the DAMM short course meet and went 33.5 50 fly, 30.5 50 free, 40.8 50 *** 37.8 50 back and 1:19 100 IM. Three months after that at the Republic of Texas Meet he went 29 50 fly, 26.5 50 free, 35.3 50 *** 32.2 50 back and 1:08 100 IM.
I am still unsure about how you end up with 2x though. Could you explain?
Sure, but people have been known to get upset, create fake accounts, and start fights about definitions, etc when I start using math, so I try to avoid it now.
Physics simplifies things to begin with, and I am going to have to simplify things even more.
Drag force = 1/2 "fluid density" * area * "drag coefficient" * velocity^2
We are comparing swimming to cycling, so we don't care about actual numbers, just the ratios between the two, except velocity. Luckily, we have real velocity numbers.
The drag coefficient difference between a streamlined body and a sphere is 10x. When compared to a swimmer, a cyclist isn't very streamlined, so lets assume 10x difference between the two. Now the area facing the resistance is also quite different between a swimmer and a cyclist, so lets also assume a 2x difference. We don't care about the 1/2, since it is canceled out. To keep things simple, water density is 1000 and air density is 1.
Now we have
"Drag force of swimming"/"Drag force of cycling = (1000*1*1*"swimming velocity"^2)/(1*10*2*"cycling velocity"^2)
This is where I make a mistake. I don't know anything about cycling, so I assumed 25mph for the cyclist and 5mph for a swimmer, but I forgot to convert to m/s.
(1000*1*1*5^2)/(1*10*2*25^2) = 2
That is where I got my 2x. Using 2 m/s for the swimmer and 11m/s for the cyclist we get:
(1000*1*1*2^2)/(1*10*2*11^2) = 1.7
Considering power and especially energy, cyclist really do care, or should care, a lot about air resistance.
And my point wasn't that 2x is correct, but point was that people neglect air, but at racing speed for a cyclist, it is a significant factor.
I don't know ANYTHING about cycling but I know over a 90 hour race, a huge amount of calories will be spent just cutting through the air. I have to think that more calories are spent on air resistance by cyclists than swimmers spend on water resistance even if I am hugely wrong with my coefficient of drag and area ratios.
What do cyclists think they spend all their energy on?
So you would think it's a technique, that most should learn?
Cycling is a dangerous sport to begin with. I am not qualified to give advice on cycling, but it does seem like the sport is being trivialized in the thread.
