My great friend, the charming ignoramus Leslie "the Fortess" Livingston, and I recently had the opportunity to bandy about a debate topic in the November issue of Swimmer magazine.
Leslie has asked me to create a poll to see which of us had the more persuasive arguments vis a vis the usefulness of weight lifting to behoove swimming performance.
I tried to talk Leslie out of such a poll, because I wasn't sure her delicate albeit manly temperament could take the likely beat down she would get, vote wise.
After all, her teenage daughter had already proclaimed, in uncertain terms, that she was best off pleading Nolo contendere here (see en.wikipedia.org/.../Nolo_contendere if your legal skills are as atrophied as Leslie's). In her daughter's own words, "He totally owned you, Mom! Like totally! It was so awesome! He's so totally funny, and you are so totally uptight, Mom! I mean, it was like so totally embarrassing how much he owned you! Please tell me I'm adopted! Please tell me Jim Thornton is my real mother!"
Unfortunately, this kind of advanced rhetorical argument on my part fell on deaf ears, just as my advanced rhetorical argument--in which actual studies were cited!--also fell on deaf ears. Evidently, the dear girl has overdone the neck thickening machine, and in the process, mastoid muscle processes seem to have overgrown her ear canals!
I know that not everyone has received their copy of Swimmer yet. Rumor has it that those of us who live in the higher class zip codes get the extra virgin pressed copies, with the rest of you having to wait to the ink starts getting stale.
You will get your copies one day, I assure you! Just as you will get your H1N1 swine flu vaccines dosages when me and my friends at Goldman have had our third inoculations!
But I am getting a bit off the track here.
If you've read our Inane Point (Leslie) - Brilliant Counterpoint (Jim) *** for tat debate, Leslie asks that you vote in this poll for the person you think was RHETORICALLY superior.
Note: this does not mean which of us was right.
Hell, I have already conceded Leslie was right, and have begun weight lifting myself thrice weekly!
I am one bulked up monstrosity of a girly man at this point, and I don't plan to stop till you can bounce quarters off my moobs.
So. Forget all aspects of actual rational correctness here, and certainly forget all aspects of who is more popular.
And vote with your pitiless inner rhetoritician calling the shots.
Leslie, I warned you: Nolo contendere was the smart plea. But no, you just wouldn't hear of it!
Former Member
I think the difference between Mr. Thornton's experiment and this thread is the word 'demonstrably'.
It is not 'demonstrably' true that weight lifting fails to improve performance. There is anecdotal evidence, supported by at least three people, and there is at least one study. There are other studies concluding weight lifting doesn't help.
I don't think either side has a 'demonstrable' advantage in this discussion.
I hope not. That is a world-class rant. Rant on, brother, rant on.
So true! I think it's fair to say no one can out argue, out rant or out insult Jimby. :applaud:
Joshua, I doubt that women swimmers who are investing time in hitting the weight room are doing the exercises you suggest.
In case you STILL have not received your SWIMMER Magazine...
Just enlarge this to read the debate!
Thanks. I never get swimmer mag. Its good to finally see what led to this thread.
Maybe that will stave off future rants like this one:
"Let's put Galileo in prison for saying the earth revolves around the sun! Let's jail that Tennessee science teacher for claiming creationism is false! Let's stone Jim because he lifts weights via Nautilus machines instead of the latest P9OX system conducted under challenging conditions of hot yoga while imbibing Soylent Green Smoothies and visualizing swimming immune warriors revitalizing his joints! Let's stick a pig's head on a stick and worship the fly swarm that gathers! Let's cut out the tongues of everyone who bears false witness against us and wag them viciously in the air! Let's elevate smugness to its rightful place in the pantheon of virtues! Let's cherry pick the scientific literature to support our anecdotal evidence, and if the scientific literature fails us, let's say that this is because swimming does not attract good researchers the way high caliber sports like badminton and curling do! Let's kick sand in the face of weaklings everywhere! That will teach them! Oh, yes! Yes! Yes! That will teach them very well indeed."
I hope not. That is a world-class rant. Rant on, brother, rant on.
As a long time weight trainer and recreational swimmer, here are my (weak $) two cents:
1. It is unclear if weight training has a direct effect on swimming i.e. lowering of times. I feel that it certainly has an important indirect effect as far as structural stability and prevention of injuries (in a way, similar to flexibility training). It is beneficial for masters swimmers as they get older because swimming is not an activity that promotes bone strength. Also, swimming is mostly about pulling. A good strength training program would include pushing and pulling in several planes and therefore promote tonal body integrity.
2. I believe that studies on elite swimmers are not too relevant for the typical masters swimmer due to age, seriousness of training, nutrition, additional substances etc.Elite swimmers (elite athletes in general) live in an entirely different world. It's like the average Joe trying to draw conclusions from the training program of Bulgarian weightlifters.
3. Training routines: Any rational strength program will work for awhile. After that your body adopts and the program must be modified. So I would not recommend training always in the same rep range. I would also opt for a shorter routine and not spend more than 1 hour in the gym. Preferably 45 minutes.
4. Exercise selection: from what I've seen after years in the weight room most men spend a huge amount of time working on their showy muscles i.e. biceps and pecs. That means doing endless sets of curls and bench presses or some kind of chest press machine. Women go for hitting the rear and the flabby tris. Time is better spent doing a few composite movements that work the body as a unit i.e. squats, deadlifts, various presses, pullups etc. The only problem is that these are hard! So alot of time is wasted in the gym.
5. Alternate strength training methods: it is possible to get very strong without a bb or a db. Body weight exercises are a good alternative. One arm pullups anyone?
OK, I gotta start pumping iron.
Lately I've resorted to tools to get the pickle jars open. (a strappy lever thing that was designed to get your oil filter off.)
I think my wife preferred my (former) brawn to this unmanly wimpy workaround.
one benefit of strength training for me is that muscle pain is pretty much eliminated as a performance limiting factor in the pool. of course lactic acid still slows me down but not the pain only the fatigue. this is especially noticeable on pulling sets. also, it balances the shoulder muscles which means i can swim more/harder without shoulder pain to stop me.
on the downside, strength work increases the body density which causing sinkage and balance issues and can negatively change body shape from a drag perspective.
net effect? don't know but i have gotten a little faster so it can't be all bad.
Yea, I guess that my viewpoint is male oriented.
A little story: about two years ago I saw a female h.s. swimmer trying to do squats. It was the most torturous mutant squat I ever saw. Apparently her coach told her to do them and never gave her any instruction. I tried to help her but she was not inclined to begin with a wooden stick until she got the necessary flexibility and learned the proper movement pattern. I explained to her that free weight training is a skill unto itself and must be learned. She really wasn't into that and I suggested she do leg presses rather than risk a squat related injury.
I'm sure the same thing could happen to high school guys who haven't previously lifted as well.
With respect to masters, which is us, I believe that people undertaking dryland programs to improve their swimming make some effort to incorporate and learn the correct exercises.
Joshua, I doubt that women swimmers who are investing time in hitting the weight room are doing the exercises you suggest.
Yea, I guess that my viewpoint is male oriented.
A little story: about two years ago I saw a female h.s. swimmer trying to do squats. It was the most torturous mutant squat I ever saw. Apparently her coach told her to do them and never gave her any instruction. I tried to help her but she was not inclined to begin with a wooden stick until she got the necessary flexibility and learned the proper movement pattern. I explained to her that free weight training is a skill unto itself and must be learned. She really wasn't into that and I suggested she do leg presses rather than risk a squat related injury.
one benefit of strength training for me is that muscle pain is pretty much eliminated as a performance limiting factor in the pool. of course lactic acid still slows me down but not the pain only the fatigue. this is especially noticeable on pulling sets. also, it balances the shoulder muscles which means i can swim more/harder without shoulder pain to stop me.
I've only been doing strength training for a couple of months now (in part, I admit, because Leslie Livingstone's blog has been a big influence on me, as well as Ande's SFF). It has made an incredible difference in my shoulder pains. I really didn't expect such a fast and dramatic improvement. See, before I started hitting the weight room, I worked out only in the pool, and my swimming would get faster & faster, and then BOOM! Shoulder problems would force me to back off, or even take time off, and I'd lose all that ground I'd made. Even if it were to turn out that weights don't directly increase my speed (and I think they already have), they are allowing me to swim faster. :bliss:
