I would like to nominate Andy Seibt as the greatest masters swimmer of all time. For those of you who are unaware, Andy swam the Big Shoulders open water race this weekend (it is also the USMS OW National Championship meet) and absolutely destroyed the field. And this was no slouch of a field: two college swimmers - one went a 4:24 in the 500 free in March the other a 3:47 in the 400IM! For comparisons sake, Andy went a 5:06 and 4:43 respectively in those events. Startling, I know! But it doesn't end there. Adam Dawkins, who in March beat Andy by more than a full minute in the 1,000 free and is also an experienced Open Water swimmer having completed the English Channel just 4 weeks ago was no match for our hero. Andy beat Adam by 3 seconds per 100M!!! But it DOESN'T even end there!!! There were two more swimmers in the event who beat Andy by a minute or more in the mile in March. Both of these swimmers were bested by Andy by several minutes.
Just how good was this swim? Well it is not a stretch to say that it was the single greatest swim in the history of USMS. BY FAR. Imagine a 51 year old man going a 15:15 in the 1650 or 9:10 in the 1,000. It is difficult to compare open water events to pool events, but the margin of victory (one and half minutes over 5,000 M) over the quality field cannot be over-stated.
Quite honestly I can see no reason why Andy shouldn't be put in the International Swimming Hall of Fame on this swim alone. I know that John Smith just threw up in his mouth, but until Mr. Smith starts going a 43 in the 100 free he is panty waste compared to Andy. In fact, we all owe Andy a debt of gratitude because we no longer have to view the Smiths with any kind of awe as their collection of swims (as well as the swims of many others) have been so greatly eclipsed by this feat.
This swim should reinvent the sport of Masters swimming. Been stuck in the same rut for 14 years of Masters swimming? A good number of top 10 times per year but never that huge breakthrough. Well here you have it folks. Next year I too will have my 20% improvement. Mark me down for the World Record in the 50M free. Anything is possible, just dream big baby. Although technically why wait a year. Andy improved this much since June.
One ancillary note is we can add to this story is that we can finally put to bed the "late bloomers theory," as postulated by my friend Ion Beza. But that's a whole 'nother story.
(PS: Andy if this posts somehow ends up in front of you I personally want to tell you that I am sorry you have been put through this. But I will continue to be vociferous about the validity of this swim. From all accounts you are a swell guy. But you need to be honest with yourself and recognize that you are not capable of this miraculous feat. That is a tough thing to do, I am sure. But you didn't ask for the error and you don't have anything to be ashamed about. You are still one heck of a swimmer. Just not the greatest of all time.)
Former Member
what do you have to gain from lambasting this guy? you didn't even do big shoulders, am i correct???
So when you see something is wrong, you only do something about it if you have a vested interest? If you feel that I have lambasted the guy then I have missed my mark. Because (as I said in the post) I do not blame him and in fact I feel sorry for him. But wrong is wrong.
...If you feel that I have lambasted the guy then I have missed my mark...
the quote below isn't considered lambasting him???
...But you need to be honest with yourself and recognize that you are not capable of this miraculous feat...
i think that is berating him, or if you like, denouncing him vehemently. both the word "berate" and the phrase "denounce vehemently" are synonyms of lambaste. so yes, i think you have lambasted him, and i really don't think you missed your mark- your posts have been rather vehement...
just my :2cents:, from someone who has no vested interest in anything open water...
So when you see something is wrong, you only do something about it if you have a vested interest?
This reminds me of a legal concept called "standing to sue" which basically says, as I understand it, that you can only bring suit if you are the party injured and if the courts can remedy the situation.
I guess Mollie is saying, and I tend to agree, is: why are you so vocal on this if you really have no stake in the matter? There are no records that were set. It didn't cost you a place in a national championship. If you feel that the race is run poorly, you can elect not to participate in it in the future.
I can see other people in the race might be concerned. I can see members of the Long Distance Committee being concerned if they thought a national championship was not run properly. You've raised questions, fine, but now you are at an impasse. Starting this additional thread does seem a little mean-spirited in that light, even if you didn't intend it that way.
dude, give it a rest already... does this really need its own thread? you've already been quite clear that you think andy obviously couldn't have done this swim on another thread. what do you have to gain from lambasting this guy? you didn't even do big shoulders, am i correct???
I don't normally read the OW board so I'm just catching up on all the drama.
- After reading the Big Shoulders race director's post and other accounts of the race setup, it sounds like Big Shoulders was run right and they made sure that the winner was legit beyond reasonable doubt, alien abduction theories aside. I've seen some badly organized events before (for the record they were triathlons, not OW swims) and this wasn't at all like those.
- Think about the greatest race/competition/round of golf of your life. How much better than your normal self were you that day? How easy was it for you that day? How much do you wish you could bring it like that every day? Isn't is possible that for the winner, that Big Shoulders was his greatest day (so far)? The race director said that he had the race of his life and I see no reason not to believe it.
- Lefty, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned PED's or genetic doping. Leave no roid unturned in your quest for... uh, what are you trying to do exactly?
- Great job KNelson!
- This is my fifth bullet point.
- :banana:
dude, give it a rest already... does this really need its own thread? you've already been quite clear that you think andy obviously couldn't have done this swim on another thread. what do you have to gain from lambasting this guy? you didn't even do big shoulders, am i correct???
+1 here. Pretty vitriolic for a person who hides behind a nom de plume, eh?
In fact, we all owe Andy a debt of gratitude because we no longer have to view the Smiths with any kind of awe as their collection of swims
I care not for the Smiths swimming prowess, but I am constantly in awe of their posts here in the forums.
I get waxed in OW swims many times by swimmers I beat in pool swims.
So what?
I can't seem to swim a straight line without guidance. A line must be some sort of "enhancement" device and some swimmers don't need it. I, apparently, do. Maybe Andy doesn't.
One thing to take into consideration is that Andy was placed in a heat separate from the vast majority of "elite" level swimmers at this competition... I watched the race and am surprised that no one has officially (apparently) contested the results of this race... there is no way that Andy Seibt swam the best time of the day. I know of at least two former members of the U.S. national team that participated in that race, as well as a few (current) top NCAA qualifiers... I repeat there is no way this result is correct. Maybe he skipped a bouy or there was something wrong with the timing system? How does a man his age DROP nearly 13 MINUTES from his best time on that exact same course?
The only problem with the honest mistake angle, though, is that it had to be very very large mistake so I have a hard time thinking he doesn't know.
I think it is a mistake to believe you can know what a person thinks. I don't know about you, but when I am swimming all out in a 5K OW race my brain cells don't work very well.
In OW swimmers make honest mistakes. For an example everyone saw where David Davies, who was leading at the time, took a bad sighting coming down the stretch at the last Olympics and almost missed the finishing chute.
I leave it up to the swimmer to come forward and make any correction, if any, that they deem appropriate. Otherwise it is up to the RD to improve the race next year to regain peoples' confidence in the results.
