Swimming World's top 12 master swimmers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have a great deal of respect for the people who spend there time ,energy and expertise to come up with the top 12 every year,but as I have said before I feel the process is flawed by it's focus on WRs.This problem of WR times not recognized as WRs just adds to the problem.The problem of the FINA year ending in Nov is another confounding issue.I know that given the FINA year it is not possible at this time,but I'd say the best measurement would be total # of #1 times at the end of the year,but I could also allow extra credit for exceptional swims(where you beat the #2 time by a large %)

Does FINA have a Top 10 list at the end of the year? If so, I would be more than happy to take this change into consideration. Certainly they do. They even have all-time Top 10 performers: www.fina.org/.../index.php I agree with Allen that the emphasis on WRs distorts things. In the case of some swimmers that have many such records in their age group, it means that they are essentially competing against their younger selves, even if they are far ahead of their nearest competitors. Also...it may not be a very PC thing to say, but primarily using WRs could somewhat inflate the accomplishments of older swimmers who have many WRs simply b/c there have not been many swims in that particular event. (Let me hasten to add that I have a huge admiration for such swimmers, in fact they are generally the athletes I admire most. If the purpose of the recognition is primarily to honor longevity, then so be it and I have no problem with it...but it shouldn't just happen by default.) I think some sort of age-adjusted rating system like the one we use in Virginia: www.vaswim.org/.../rcalc.cgi (there are other methods too) would be good too for more objectively evaluating someone like Dennis Baker who competes in fewer events but rates extremely well in those events.

Does FINA have a Top 10 list at the end of the year? If so, I would be more than happy to take this change into consideration. The reason why we currently have a WR-based setup is because there is not a single place that calculates the top FINA-sanctioned Masters times of each year in each event in each age division. If I'm missing something, I would love to try to get this system more accurate in a way that works within our available resources. I've been extremely honest about this. The Top 12 World Masters of the Year is the single-biggest project of the year for me at Swimming World. It trumps the World Swimmers of the Year and the national high school championships by a long shot. I begin the process as soon as the FINA list comes out Nov. 1, and I don't get completely done with it until February. There are some lulls during that time where I'm not doing something daily with it, but not many. I enjoy the process and enjoy getting the ballot put together. I'm not complaining. I'm just wondering if there is a way to make this more accurate considering the resources available to making it happen. If FINA doesn't have a single sponsored list of even top 3s in each event (it has to be every event, not just some age divisions to make certain that the ballot is fair across the board), I'd be very willing to discuss potential volunteer positions to help make this happen. Right now is the best time to start working towards any improvements. Jason I am glad I don't have your job and do think overall you do a great job.I think every year there is no question that the people nominated are deserving,just the"how could you leave_____ off" question.If FINAs year ended 12/31(like the calender does) and USAs times(and the international equivalents) were readily recoverable then I think there would be less controversy.When a "sort of Masters Swimmer" finishes 2nd at the Olympics,a Masters swimmer is the oldest swimmer at the Trials,and a 46 year old man misses Trial cuts by .3 sec and none of them makes top 12 it does seem to be a problem(but given the current data available I can see why this happens and I don't blame the judges.I do blame FINA with their Nov year).

I have a great deal of respect for the people who spend there time ,energy and expertise to come up with the top 12 every year,but as I have said before I feel the process is flawed by it's focus on WRs.This problem of WR times not recognized as WRs just adds to the problem.The problem of the FINA year ending in Nov is another confounding issue.I know that given the FINA year it is not possible at this time,but I'd say the best measurement would be total # of #1 times at the end of the year,but I could also allow extra credit for exceptional swims(where you beat the #2 time by a large %) Does FINA have a Top 10 list at the end of the year? If so, I would be more than happy to take this change into consideration. The reason why we currently have a WR-based setup is because there is not a single place that calculates the top FINA-sanctioned Masters times of each year in each event in each age division. If I'm missing something, I would love to try to get this system more accurate in a way that works within our available resources. I've been extremely honest about this. The Top 12 World Masters of the Year is the single-biggest project of the year for me at Swimming World. It trumps the World Swimmers of the Year and the national high school championships by a long shot. I begin the process as soon as the FINA list comes out Nov. 1, and I don't get completely done with it until February. There are some lulls during that time where I'm not doing something daily with it, but not many. I enjoy the process and enjoy getting the ballot put together. I'm not complaining. I'm just wondering if there is a way to make this more accurate considering the resources available to making it happen. If FINA doesn't have a single sponsored list of even top 3s in each event (it has to be every event, not just some age divisions to make certain that the ballot is fair across the board), I'd be very willing to discuss potential volunteer positions to help make this happen. Right now is the best time to start working towards any improvements. Jason

But FINA still permits non-masters swimmers swimming in USA meets to garner FINA masters rankings. They just draw the line at WRs. This is a silly distinction. If, as Chris notes, swimmers like Dara should be recognized in FINA masters rankings because they are simply the fastest in the world in their age group, why not world records too? Otherwise, it's just inconsistent. And, Frank, you didn't answer. Does FINA recognize LCM times swum by a masters swimmer at USA meets? I know USMS does, but I had heard FINA did not. Obviously, plenty of LCM times swum at such meets have appeared in the FINA rankings. I was just wondering what the actual rule was. FINA does recognize masters swimmers times in USA meets as long as USMS rules and procedures are followed but for Top Ten only and not for FINA World Records. The biggest hurdle in USMS rules of swimmers getting there times to count is the pool measurement and paperwork guidelines. If those are not complete, then USMS does not accept the times and they will not be sent to FINA from USMS. I remember a USA meet in Federal Way where SVDL made an Olympic Trial cut and set a record but the time did not count because the pool was not measured after the session and the bulkheads had been moved after the meet so the ship had sailed so to speak. On the "Application for USMS and/or World Record" on line 8 it asks for the Sanction Number and the LMSC and if those are USA numbers and LSC's, then the World Record does not count but the record will be a USMS record. FINA will accept times from dual sanctioned meets between USMS and USA Swimming, but it must be stated in the Sanction grant agreement between the host and the two organizations and also it must be the meet flyer that is published. Meets like Olympic Trials and the 2009 World Trials in Indy will not have a dual sanction status because that is a selection meet for a National team and you must belong to USA Swimming to swim in those competitions. The dual sanction allows a USMS swimmer to swim in certain but not all USA meets without being a member of that organization.

Certainly they do. They even have all-time Top 10 performers: www.fina.org/.../index.php I agree with Allen that the emphasis on WRs distorts things. In the case of some swimmers that have many such records in their age group, it means that they are essentially competing against their younger selves, even if they are far ahead of their nearest competitors. Also...it may not be a very PC thing to say, but primarily using WRs could somewhat inflate the accomplishments of older swimmers who have many WRs simply b/c there have not been many swims in that particular event. (Let me hasten to add that I have a huge admiration for such swimmers, in fact they are generally the athletes I admire most. If the purpose of the recognition is primarily to honor longevity, then so be it and I have no problem with it...but it shouldn't just happen by default.) I think some sort of age-adjusted rating system like the one we use in Virginia: www.vaswim.org/.../rcalc.cgi (there are other methods too) would be good too for more objectively evaluating someone like Dennis Baker who competes in fewer events but rates extremely well in those events. Thanks, Chris. Now, the biggest problem I see with trying to do the top 10s (or even just cross referencing people who end the year with a WR and adding in people who are top 10s in an event) is that the 2008 LCM list was posted on the FINA site on March 23. We really only have two issues each year that can allow us to give Masters the full attention of an issue and those are April and October. But, if we went with October, that would mean people wouldn't be honored for another 6 months on top of the somewhat delayed setup we have right now. I do like adding in #1s and top 10s (we have a similar method in the World/Regional Swimmers of the Year each year). I'm just trying to figure out how I can fit this into the process. Any ideas? Think Walt Reid would be able to process the top 10s any quicker? Also, I'm still wanting to get our panel up to at least 10, and we're already U.S. heavy on the panel as is. Our World/Regional voting panel is up to almost 20 now.

Even though this forum has people from all over the world,it is still USA top heavy.None the less,it would be easy for Forumites to nominate swims.As well as the USA-S swims this would also get the late season SCM meets in if you wish.

Jason et al: I agree that trying to compile this list in a objectively quantifiable way is always going to generate debate and sometimes acrimony so I take my hat off to you. A more fun list might come about like this: take your panel of experts who will assess and adjudicate a top 10 list of swims that make you go WOW! These could be submitted (or nominated) through the year and yes WR's are always impressive, but so are swims done under some adversity, injury, illness, advanced pregnancy the list could go on, the judges would be provided with context by the nominations and see if they are impressed. This could cut across age group etc. to really illuminate the top ten swims each year. In fact, perhaps a 'swim' could include where two or more break a world record swimming head to head. That makes me go WOW!

Jason et al: I agree that trying to compile this list in a objectively quantifiable way is always going to generate debate and sometimes acrimony so I take my hat off to you. A more fun list might come about like this: take your panel of experts who will assess and adjudicate a top 10 list of swims that make you go WOW! These could be submitted (or nominated) through the year and yes WR's are always impressive, but so are swims done under some adversity, injury, illness, advanced pregnancy the list could go on, the judges would be provided with context by the nominations and see if they are impressed. This could cut across age group etc. to really illuminate the top ten swims each year. In fact, perhaps a 'swim' could include where two or more break a world record swimming head to head. That makes me go WOW! I love this idea. Any ideas on how to process these swims to the panel? I know how to get the swims to the panel once I get them, but not sure how to get these stories together.

They could be submitted by clubs, regions, zones etc, whatever; in the age of the internet, it would not be too hard to verify them. There could also categories for age-group, college etc. It would also share knowledge of wow swims that escaped initial notice or comment. I would like to think it would be very prestigious if one managed two or more wow swims (I think there would be a natural tendency of a panel not to do that, so if it decided to do that- WOW!)