back-to-*** transition - any advice?

Ahelee was probably ok as one only has to 'keep the body on the ***' after your feet leave the wall but she probably got popped on the 'all movement of the arms shall be simulateous and in the same horizontal plane' requirement. For me, that's a VERY tough one to call, yes, an experienced swimmer/judge KNOWS that a swimmer rotated 45 degrees to the side executing a pullout is not keeping the arms in the same horizontal plane but knowing it in your mind and actually SEEING that the arms are NOT in the same horizontal plane is quite a different matter.

Yes, as an older - 63 -swimmer, I need more time to get a good breath on the turn to get me farther out on my pullout than a flip will allow me. You young uns GO for it!

Solar... I am both an IM swimmer and a coach. me too, outdated coach that is... #1 - There are very few masters swimmers willing to practice enough to perfect this back to *** IM flip-turn to make it better than a great open turn. agreed of course. #2 - A swimmer needs "big air" on this turn to perform a great breaststroke underwater pull and breakout. Generally speaking I believe most swimmers have a better opportunity to get that big breath on the open turn. Well, the leg before this long underwater glide is backstroke right? One possible reason for the apparent popularity of this turn is that one has a whole lot of time to "over breathe" during back leg prior to flip. Therefore I don't see this oxygen dept thing as being a real factor. Of course, if the leg prior the flip any other stroke then that would be a different story... #3 - Rules have changed. A swimmer must clearly touch the wall with their hand on this flip-turn. that would be my number one concern. both theory and practical based evidence seem to be clear on that the hand must touch the wall quite deep into the water for the flip to work. fairly clear here YouTube - IM - Sievinen back-*** turn executed by Phelps YouTube - IM - Phelps back-*** turn And then seems to be fairly shallow here (but it might be an illusion) YouTube - Adam Mania's Back to *** turn now wait a minute. Are #1 and #3 the same turn??? (gees I am having a hard time understanding this turn, even if I started practicing it few weeks ago already).

now wait a minute. Are #1 and #3 the same turn??? (gees I am having a hard time understanding this turn, even if I started practicing it few weeks ago already). This is my problem too - The swimmer in #1 seems to keep his feet IN the water and to lean to the side and move his feet to the wall. Swimmer #3 seems to do more of a flip that goes almost straight back and his feet clearly leave the water. I'm still struggling with what to do about this and lately I've just been focusing on making my open turn as fast as possible. I really should find someone to just teach me this thing.... I'll keep studying these videos too - it may just sink in! Thannks for posting these

but it looks like you can see her hip before the touch. That may be true but the only thing that matters is the shoulders. Body position is not judged at the hips but at the shoulders.

Eureka!! ( U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - back-to-*** transition - any advice? ) #1 and #3 aren't the same. #1 is derived from a Turn invented by a backstroke swimmer, I think his name is Mader. The specifics of this turn is that the swimmer isn't actually flipping. This turn allows for the legs to travel outside the water AND for the head to be outside the water as well allowing for the swimmer to breathe (if you pause the clip during the turn, you'll notice that his head is turned face up) #3 is the new kid on the block. There the swimmer is flipping and there's no way that he'd be able to breathe while doing it. Here. found another nice view #3 YouTube - IM - back-*** turn Man!! this is such a nice turn, I do not want to die before mastering it!!

Solar, it looks like she is turning over too far before the wall is touched. The hardest part of the turn is staying on your back or side to touch the wall before the flip. I know it is hard to see when exatly the hand touched, but it looks like you can see her hip before the touch.

Solar, it looks like she is turning over too far before the wall is touched. The hardest part of the turn is staying on your back or side to touch the wall before the flip. I know it is hard to see when exatly the hand touched, but it looks like you can see her hip before the touch. I think you may be right. You'd fear a DQ in such a case? Can you accomplish this turn yourself?

I'll keep studying these videos too - it may just sink in! Thannks for posting these Good thing to do. Paying attention to these details, that's part of training. If you want detailed explanations about this turn, you may try to rent a copy of latest Maglischo's book "Swimming Fastest", it is detailed there as well as some other variations of back-to-***. But even after reading it over and over, I don't seem to be able to hold the information in my head long enough. As soon as I reach the deck, black out.. (well not that bad, I can now do something that look like a flip. But it is still very laughable and would probably end up DQ using it). In the mean time, if anyone could tell us if #1 and #3 are the same, would greatly be appreciated. I prefer #1 since it look more natural and as efficient.

Solar where have you been??? I have missed your intelligent theories and comments. Good thing to do. Paying attention to these details, that's part of training. If you want detailed explanations about this turn, you may try to rent a copy of latest Maglischo's book "Swimming Fastest", it is detailed there as well as some other variations of back-to-***. But even after reading it over and over, I don't seem to be able to hold the information in my head long enough. As soon as I reach the deck, black out.. (well not that bad, I can now do something that look like a flip. But it is still very laughable and would probably end up DQ using it). In the mean time, if anyone could tell us if #1 and #3 are the same, would greatly be appreciated. I prefer #1 since it look more natural and as efficient.