Flip turns: Weightless arms/hands?

It's just to spin faster by making the part of my body that is underwater as small as possible, and to get my hands up by my head so that they are where they need to be when I push off. Agree with this point regarding improving rotational speed, but I think in the passive arm turn, you turn into the hands already in position.

Agree with this point regarding improving rotational speed, but I think in the passive arm turn, you turn into the hands already in position. Dead on - by the time your feet hit the wall and you're ready to push off, your hands should be in perfect streamline. To be honest, I have no idea what my hands do while I tumble - I just know they area always in that tight streamline when I'm finished tumbling over.

Do people consciously throw water over their shoulders as they turn, or is this just an unconscious but natural consequence of a powerful turn? I know I don't and, to tell you the truth, I'm having a hard time visualizing what this even means.

When I was learning the flip turn (some odd 25+ years ago so things may have changed), our coach instructed us to do what you described in the first post. Basically as you were flipping, you would put your palms facing towards your head and flex your biceps pushing water and helping your turn. If you were to actually watch someone do it from a resting frame of reference, you would see the whole body roll over while the arms would look like they didn't actually move. We were also instructed on the dolphin kick. I do think that both the arm flex and the dolphin kick are exaggerated movements intended only for learning the feeling of a good turn, though. I don't think it was intended as a continual practice because now my arms sort of follow that postioning but don't actually contribute to the force of turning. Also, I don't exactly do a full dolphin kick, but instead my lower body kind of quickly shimmies (like a small crack of a whip) to give the impetus to the turning motion. And turns are probably the only good part of my swimming.

Yes, the kind where your arms stay at your side after you've done your final two pulls, you use your abs to flip over (and freestyle kick into the pulls, but once the turn has started, no dolphin, just the force of your last pull), and because your arms are already at your side, when you flip over and come out of your turn you are initially on your back or at an angle, depending on where you planted your feet, and your arms, with little or no effort, are in the right position for streamline, and you glide in the direction of your stomach, do some dolphins, and then start swimming freestyle again. I am referring to freestyle flip turns, in short. With no extra effort from arms during the turn. The question I have is do you need to do a push toward your head with your arms as you rotate, or does this just happen as result of force of turn if you leave your arms "weightless," as in the drills I have seen?

IMO, definitely use the core, not the arms. I don't recall the article/drills that you mention but the concept sounds right to me. (Again, IMO.)

When I start my turning motion, both my hands are down by my hips, palms facing the bottom of the pool. The flip itself is a hard pike, so that my head goes toward my knees. I'd say it's primarily abs that cause the tumbling motion although I think I do a sort of dolphin kick that recruits my quads as well to get my legs moving up out of the water. Hamstrings first stretch as I pike, then contract to snap my heels over. I bend my arms at the elbow as I am going over but I don't think that motion contributes much if any power. It's just to spin faster by making the part of my body that is underwater as small as possible, and to get my hands up by my head so that they are where they need to be when I push off.

Do you mean a turn where your arms stay at your side, the turn is initiated by a quick dolphin kick and once turned you just lock your shoulders? I have found that this type of turn can be faster but considering my clumsiness, I find it difficult occasionally to strike the wall properly and then come off at a decent angle. :P

don't turn turning into a bunch of words 1) during the flip phase of your turn your arms/hands help you accellerate the by moving your hands from your hip to your head in the opposite direction you're spinning 2) your hands should be near your head just before your feet hit the wall 3) turning distance It's kind of tricky to get your turning distance right, it distance and timing vary with how fast you're swimming Find your sweet spot, you want to hit the wall with full momentum, with your knees bent in just the right way ready to PUSH OFF HARD you know you turned too: a. close to the wall when you're all balled up (don't let your butt hit the wall first) and b. far from the wall when your feet don't or barely hit the wall (don't scull backward with your legs straight) Practice many turns at race pace and get your turns down 4) your hands arms should be streamlined as you're pushing off the wall Get in a skinny streamline position push off HARD use your momentum to rebound GLIDE FAST AND FAR watch great swimmers turn copy their movements there's some excellent freestyle videos on youtube think there's a link to a phelps slow motion turn SDK at andesswimmingblog.blogspot.com/.../swim-faster-faster-session.html have someone watch you above and underwater watch swimmers turn above and underwater Just do it like Mike Years ago coaches told us on freestyle to not breathe in and out of the flags SDK has changed this. We're now seeing swimmers BREATHE a big breath one or two strokes before their turns Especially if they are SDKing further off the wall after their turns. Hold your air through your turn and SDK until you breakout.

Above water, I see tight arms at sides for most good flippers. Below water I don't see what's happening, except in videos, and I see that Olympians bend their arms a little and do seem to use extra force with arms to get around. I tried this and the first time it worked. The second time I was not fast enough and nearly ripped my shoulders off. Essentially my arms were in some kind of "chair" position since I wasn't fast enough (much drag!). I think you are right. Don't overthink. My turns work better for me if I keep my arms fairly passive (though tight against my sides when I begin my turns) and use the force of my pike to fling me over, keeping my arms neutral, because that way they seem to be automatically in streamline when I come out of my turns. For freestyle I am trying to make it a habit to come out of my turns nearly on my back, then glide and rotate to my side for a longer time than I used to, then dolphin my way up to surface, the pull with the arm closer to the bottom of the pool and swim away with flutter kick as fast as I can.