End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch
Former Member
I know everyone has been watching the Olympics and if anyone sees someone (in any stroke and at any distance) not showing an Early Vertical Forearm (EVF) stroke please point it out to me. In the men’s 400 Fr Relay, Lezak’s better EVF stroke helped him touch the wall before Bernard who dropped his elbows in the last few strokes. These Olympic Games should put to rest the controversy of the catch-up stroke (never once performed by any freestyler in these Olympics). So what you see someone do in a drill (catch-up) is not done in competitive swims when it counts!! The high elbow at the front quadrant of every stroke is so pronounced that every lay-on-a-straight-arm proponent has to become a convert (I know it’s not ever going to happen). I’m anxious to hear the rationalizations and support from the opposition. If you’re watching with your eyes open, there’s no catch-up and no straight-arm catch - PERIOD!!!
If you want to make significant gains in your swimming focus on improving your Early Vertical Forearm technique. Improving your EVF should take about 6 to 8 weeks and when that becomes better you should focus on improving a good streamlined position by spending as much time as possible on your side while making sure that your catch begins early. Of course athleticism goes hand in hand with improvement. But you get my drift. Nuff-said.
Former Member
Here is what I have seen - and there are always some exceptions -- but overall.
A) the sprinters have gone to straight arm or no catch-up - that is very obvious. They don't spend even a split second with either hand stretched out (which makes sense - it's an all-out sprint).
B) the 400 swimmers all did close to a catch-up stroke with a monster kick. Nobody actually catches in the front - but many of the swimmers have one or both sides where the hand is almost ready to enter and the other hand is just starting to catch.
Now - I am wondering if one should make a decision early on - depending on being a distance swimmer or a sprinter. If you are a sprinter and learn I nice long close to catch-up Free stroke - you will never reach the top.
Did we see a catchup stroke or was it a just slowed drop to EVF which I think we actually saw. I saw some great swimming I also noticed lots of dropped elbows, by some very good swimmers. The dropped elbows only happened a few times during their swims not every stroke.
It is interesting how we're both looking at the same thing and seeing something totally different.
The difference is that you are looking for something that you've been advocating for a long time, and the rest of us are just looking.
Also, do you call this EVF? www.youtube.com/watch
And how do you know Bernard wasn't "dropping his elbows" the whole way? He split 46.7, which is one of the fastest swims of all time.
This morning our coach was commenting on the fact that the 400 swimmers were all using a catch up stroke. It was very apparent to me as well. Perhaps you are using a more restrictive definition than the rest of us?
All I see is a lot of swimmers using a high-elbow catch, while galloping like a horse. Watch Michael Phelps tonight in the 200 and tell me he is not galloping.
We should have someone measure the stroke rate of individual arms to see if one arm is truly catching up with the other. I bet his left arm cycle is slower.
Your video like many that support laying on a straight arm forever while the other arm catches up shows a drill. Let's see what Ian Thorpe does in a real race when it counts. You'll notice his right arm in an EVF position as his left arm enters the water. The swimmer next to him does the same thing.
www.youtube.com/watch
Tom, this thread and the other one you started really should be merged. I really don't understand what your argument is about. People (including myself) have stated repeatedly that the EVF at the time the recovery arm enters is front quadrant swimming. Unless people are in EVF behind the shoulder, which would make no sense and would give little propulsion. Front quadrant swimming is in contrast to rotary swimming, where the pulling arm is behind the shoulder by the time the recovery arm enters the water. While rotary strokes give constant propulsion, it seems to me that the drag factor is increased. Are you proposing a rotary stroke?
There is not front quadrant swimming and should be dispelled as gobbledee-gook speak-ease. Every swimmer from toddler to World class swimmer uses some facsimile of all four quadrants.
Let’s sort out some definitions so swimmers understand terminology. Front-quadrant swimming; it is not a style but a term. Each competitive stroke can be separated into various parts. If we use four parts or quadrants we can dissect each stroke into a front quadrant where propulsion occurs, a second quadrant where the finish or completion of the stroke occurs, a third quadrant where the recovery is initiated, and the fourth quadrant where the recovery makes the transition to the entry.
The recovery (when the arms are out of the water) may be looked at as a style where coaches see swimmer with either a straight arm or bent arm recovery and even a variance of both. The position of a swimmers body (hip rotation) while they are swimming may also be looked at as a style when swimmers are either very horizontal / flat or rolling side to side. Pulling patterns are also looked at by coaches who will notice different sculling motions as swimmer will pull faster or more pronounced toward the midline of the body and away from it. The depth of the hand as it pulls back is also another cue coaches look for when dissecting a stroke. Coaches will also look at how a swimmer sets-up their stroke in either an Early Vertical Forearm catch (over-a-barrel position) or a Straight arm catch. And last but not least, a coach will look at a swimmer tempo or timing to see when the arms and legs move and if they’re working together effectively or not.
Janet Evan’s straight arm recovery did not stop her from setting world records because when her arms where in the water she displayed effective propulsive / world class form.
The way I have seen most of these swimmers is that their EVF is anterior to their shoulders, so being in the power pull phase when the recovery arm enters is still front quadrant. There are some swimmers who pull a little later, at least from what I've seen, but I think we all agree that none do it to the extent of the classis catch-up drill. This video of Thorpe shows a classic front quadrant stroke, but clearly a pull before the recovery arm has entered the water.
www.youtube.com/watch
Your video like many that support laying on a straight arm forever while the other arm catches up shows a drill. Let's see what Ian Thorpe does in a real race when it counts. You'll notice his right arm in an EVF position as his left arm enters the water. The swimmer next to him does the same thing.
www.youtube.com/watch
