End of Controversy - No catch-up or straight arm catch
Former Member
I know everyone has been watching the Olympics and if anyone sees someone (in any stroke and at any distance) not showing an Early Vertical Forearm (EVF) stroke please point it out to me. In the men’s 400 Fr Relay, Lezak’s better EVF stroke helped him touch the wall before Bernard who dropped his elbows in the last few strokes. These Olympic Games should put to rest the controversy of the catch-up stroke (never once performed by any freestyler in these Olympics). So what you see someone do in a drill (catch-up) is not done in competitive swims when it counts!! The high elbow at the front quadrant of every stroke is so pronounced that every lay-on-a-straight-arm proponent has to become a convert (I know it’s not ever going to happen). I’m anxious to hear the rationalizations and support from the opposition. If you’re watching with your eyes open, there’s no catch-up and no straight-arm catch - PERIOD!!!
If you want to make significant gains in your swimming focus on improving your Early Vertical Forearm technique. Improving your EVF should take about 6 to 8 weeks and when that becomes better you should focus on improving a good streamlined position by spending as much time as possible on your side while making sure that your catch begins early. Of course athleticism goes hand in hand with improvement. But you get my drift. Nuff-said.
Former Member
Chaos do you think the more relaxed stroke means they are not putting out as much effort??
more of a conclusion about that race than universal...i would agree as one will never know if bernard was capable of swimming it any other way.
give me two people swimming the same speed and i am typically more impressed by the one with a more relaxed stroke rate.....but hey, thats just me.
Chaos do you think the more relaxed stroke means they are not putting out the as much effort??
not at all. you can lift 25lbs 10x or you can lift 10lbs 25x....the same amount of work is being accomplished. in cycling, each must find his own comfortable gear. in a time trial, the rider who can push the largest gear fastest wins.
Just about the way I thought you would answer, the way that I think too. When I raced everyone used to say why are you taking it so easy and I was trying as hard as I could.
not at all. you can lift 25lbs 10x or you can lift 10lbs 25x....the same amount of work is being accomplished. in cycling, each must find his own comfortable gear. in a time trial, the rider who can push the largest gear fastest wins.
i believe(could be wrong) front quadrant swimming refers to keeping it all in the front , that sounds simplistic. but doc counsilman used to refer to finishing the stoke meaning the umph was at the back(exit), i learned to swim that way, now the "catch" terms are shoulder driven, front quadratant,posture line balance.
i did a masters camp in stanford in 2000 with richard quick and if i remember correctly besides teaching posture, line and balance- they talked about front quadrant keeping -for example- in *** everything in the front. in front of the lungs. power is in the front.
ok i took a shot at explaining it.
do i do it? yeah, now i do.
nobody uses the term "s" in freestyle anymore.
Lezak used a catch up stroke
his stroke helped him catch up to and pass benard
I know everyone has been watching the Olympics and if anyone sees someone (in any stroke and at any distance) not showing an Early Vertical Forearm (EVF) stroke please point it out to me. In the men’s 400 Fr Relay, Lezak’s better EVF stroke helped him touch the wall before Bernard who dropped his elbows in the last few strokes. These Olympic Games should put to rest the controversy of the catch-up stroke (never once performed by any freestyler in these Olympics). So what you see someone do in a drill (catch-up) is not done in competitive swims when it counts!! The high elbow at the front quadrant of every stroke is so pronounced that every lay-on-a-straight-arm proponent has to become a convert (I know it’s not ever going to happen). I’m anxious to hear the rationalizations and support from the opposition. If you’re watching with your eyes open, there’s no catch-up and no straight-arm catch - PERIOD!!!
If you want to make significant gains in your swimming focus on improving your Early Vertical Forearm technique. Improving your EVF should take about 6 to 8 weeks and when that becomes better you should focus on improving a good streamlined position by spending as much time as possible on your side while making sure that your catch begins early. Of course athleticism goes hand in hand with improvement. But you get my drift. Nuff-said.
The effective catch is one of the reasons Lezak won. After watching the video of Lezak, his left arm certainly shows a more pronounced EVF on his last stroke to the wall compared to the Frenchmen.
some text from an olympic blog:
Lezak has a "patient catch" even at that speed. He rotates his hips noticeably. Bernard rushes the catch to accommodate his high stroke rate and has little hip rotation.
Stroke counts for final 50
Bernard 42
Lezak 34 a -8 differential!!!
blog.totalimmersion.net/
Tom, this thread and the other one you started really should be merged. I really don't understand what your argument is about. People (including myself) have stated repeatedly that the EVF at the time the recovery arm enters is front quadrant swimming. Unless people are in EVF behind the shoulder, which would make no sense and would give little propulsion. Front quadrant swimming is in contrast to rotary swimming, where the pulling arm is behind the shoulder by the time the recovery arm enters the water. While rotary strokes give constant propulsion, it seems to me that the drag factor is increased. Are you proposing a rotary stroke?
I don't know who created the name "Front quadrant" swimming. You rotate anytime you swim properly. Second, world class swimmers work hard at keeping their inertia or forward movement constant. Even a great kick like Michael Phelps can only reduce inertia loss (those who kick worse lose more inertia). In order for a kick to increase forward speed the kick would have to create more power than the arms. A style of stroke is only a style if it can be taught. I can teach swimmers how to lay on their arm and wait for the other arm to catch up or the best way to swim and that's to start the other arm when the opposite is in the EVF or propulsive phase. I can teach a swimmer to swim flat (no rotation???) or rotate and that's another style. I can teach a swimmer to catch early or or not and that's another style.
There are enough terms out there screwing swimmers up we don't need to add more mumbo jumbo terms like Front-quadrant swimming to the list. If front quadrant means swimming flat without rotation then say that. Thanks!
i believe(could be wrong) front quadrant swimming refers to keeping it all in the front , that sounds simplistic. but doc counsilman used to refer to finishing the stoke meaning the umph was at the back(exit), i learned to swim that way, now the "catch" terms are shoulder driven, front quadratant,posture line balance.
i did a masters camp in stanford in 2000 with richard quick and if i remember correctly besides teaching posture, line and balance- they talked about front quadrant keeping -for example- in *** everything in the front. in front of the lungs. power is in the front.
ok i took a shot at explaining it.
do i do it? yeah, now i do.
nobody uses the term "s" in freestyle anymore.
I'm almost sorry I started the post, almost. It's fun to talk about swimming and I think we simply need to stop adding terms to our jargon. If you want to teach someone to breathe on one side or breathe on both you can teach it. You can teach someone to start pulling with an catch or straight arm. To tell someone not to pull when their arms are in front of them (front-quadrant) is silly, everyone who swims has a beginning, a middle, a recovery, and an entry (Four quadrants).
I hope you're enjoying the Olympics!!! Wow!
