I tend to think so, but just as in the justice system everyone is entitled to their day in court JH is entitled to her hearing and an opportunity to investigate how it could have happened. Even though I often come to conclusions about legal cases before the court proceedings are concluded, sometimes even started, I wouldn't want anyone to be sentenced for a crime without the opportunity to have their day in court.
Was Kicker V's case all wrapped up before he had the opportunity to prove that his supplements were contaminated? Yes in terms of having his medals taken away, yes in terms of being foolhardy in taking supplements, but I would say no in terms of judging whether he was a low down good for nothing cheater.
Yea, yea, yea--and OJ's blood sample was doctored by the LA Police dept, his glove did not fit, the Bruno Mali shoes were not exactly like the ones pictured in previous pictures, the LA police intentionally put one of his bloody glove by his gate at his home---Honestly, I believe JH shook hands with someone who must have intentionally put this PED into her system---or, maybe a meteorite slammed through her hotel roof while she was soundly sleeping the night before her race--and it had the PED on it from flying through the atmosphere---and it landed next to her bed and the dust got on her--and the maid cleaned up the mess before she realized she had been infected by the meteorite---Maybe she sat on a toilet seat that someone intentionally doctored with PED powder to make sure she tested + so their swimmer could have a better chance---All are obviously plausible given the fact that no one ever knowingly takes PED.:dunno:
As for Hardy - I don't know. I think perhaps her withdrawl is not as selfish as you are all making it out to be. She is the only one that can know with 100% certainty whether or not she did something intentionally wrong.
Unless she synthesized the drugs herself she procured them from somewhere, and that somewhere is probably selling them illegally and might therefore cooperate with law enforcement in seeing who their other clients were, so we might see other athletes brought down. The system ought to be set up to undermine the trust between the various parties involved in these transactions so that we'd get more Balcos.
I would have more faith in JH if she were willing to make her denials in a context where there were legal ramifications (e.g. perjury charges or charges of obstructing an investigation) for lying. I don't know if that is legally possible to do. Perhaps USADA could offer $50k to anyone who can prove a PED was delivered to an Olympic athlete. It might be more effective than going purely with testing.
This is where we agree to disagree. No reputable justice system ignores intentionality.
The WADA Athlete Guide clearly states that it matters not whether the banned substance was ingested intentionally or unintentionally. The onus is on the athlete.
This is where we agree to disagree. No reputable justice system ignores intentionality.
But we are not dealing with felonies, misdemeanors, bailiffs and parole officers either. Intent is not a concern here. Whether or not the drug was taken on purpose, it still yielded (or had the potential to yield) an advantage to Hardy over her competitors. Therefore, any performances recorded while she was on the PED are null and void.
Now, she can play the Ms. Innocent nonsense and point the finger at the supplement company.
And she knows there are plenty of suckers who will automatically side with her--the poor, innocent girl--rather than the big, bad drug company.
I think the Kicker Vencill incident did open some peoples' eyes to the fact that you need to be extremely cautious with anything you put in your body, on the other hand it also seems to have given some others a nice convenient excuse.
As somebody else already said in this thread, if she's going to blame the supplement company she better be prepared to prove the allegations.
Kicker was a member of the national team wasn't he?
Do you believe he deliberately set out to cheat by taking the supplements?
- He took supplements knowing FULL WELL that he was responsible for what he was taking. He was not taking anything under a doctors supervision and was not required nor did he report what he was taking to anyone...he won a lawsuit against the supplement company...fine...but I still say his ban was legitimate because you just don;t take the risk these days.
Hopefully his case was enough to hammer it home for subsequent swimmers but is it the case that no swimmers are taking supplements these days?
- Obviously not...i doubt there are very many elite swimmers that aren't taking something such as creatine, cytomax, etc. etc. But its still no excuse, what you put in your body your responsible for...if in this age you want to risk it your a fool.
We know that some swimmers on the current Olympic team are taking supplements (E.g. Dara is very open about it, Larsen endorsed the same supplements that JH did). How does a swimmer know? Are all the swimmers that are taking any supplements idiots?
- If they have not had the product checked out and approved then they are playing russian roulette...
Rick was a member of the Olympic team.
Do you believe he deliberately set out to cheat? Given that he duly reported the drug he was taking to USOC it seems unlikely.
- Of course not..any anyone who knows him and the story knows that he got screwed. Can you not see the difference between coming forward and disclosing the use of a doctors prescribed medication from taking over the counter..or in the case of Clen, illegal substances??!!
Silken Laumann was a member of the Canadian national team.
She took the precaution of consulting with the team doctor to see if the cold med she wanted to take was ok and was told it was. Does the fact that he was wrong make her a lying cheater?
- See above....apples to oranges vs. JH
So I will continue to draw a distinction between having had a positive test and being a deliberate cheater, even if the vast majority of people with positive tests are deliberate cheaters, and I'll trust in the system to see through any nonsense that is thrown out. I'll give JH a little bit of time to come up with a plausible if not provable explanation before I assume she falls into the deliberate cheater category.
- You do a huge disservice and in my opinion insult Rick & Silken by lumping what JH in with happened in the JH case.
Add on: Paul, when you state categorically that she took supplements with Clen in them are you lumping in Clen as a drug that can be taken in pure form with supplements?
- Of course not...I have no idea where she got Clen...she's the one along with her attorney that as of yesterday started pointing the finger at Advocare for a tainted supplement.
Bottom line...if I'm an elite/professional swimmer taking over the counter supplements knowing the testing protocol that exists in swimming then I'm an idiot if i don't have those products tested to confirm they are legal...and even then i have to accept the risk that because supplements in this country are not regulated they can and do have things in them that are not always listed...so in conclusion ANYONE taking supplements is rolling the dice.
As for the sudden improvement in freestyle - as someone pointed out way earlier (or was it another thread) - her breaststroke has not improved materially over the same period. So I don't doubt per se that her freestyle improvement could be due MOSTLY to training.
Katie Hoff's freestyle has improved tremendously over the past two years. I don't doubt her methods.
True,she didn't improve in BR,but I still think her free is suspicious.How many world class BR/Free people are there-her(and possibly you could count Phelps.)Free sprinting takes a lot of upper body strength.If Katie Hoff was suddenly our second best 50 sprinter I'd wonder about that too.
