Hi, I'm new to the board. I've read a lot of posts and think this is a great resource for people. Anyhow, a little background. My 8 year-old son, who has Asperger's syndrome and it's associated errrrr...lack of athleticism, is on the neighborhood swimming team. Surprisingly he really seems to enjoy swimming and gets excited about his improvements. He has improved from a 44 second 25 yard time to 34 seconds in this, his first year. I have never swam competitively but given his interest in swimming, I've developed a similar interest and have been reading about stroke mechanics while watching lots of video of Ian Thorpe and Alexander Popov. Of course I practice it on myself and have become infinitely better. I've been trying to teach my son proper technique as well, with some success. While other kids his age on the team (many more experienced) more or less bully their way through the water faster than him, I don't let him pull as hard as he can or stroke as hard as he can for obvious reasons...so he learns better. He will be taking lessons soon from one of the student coaches, although I'm a little weary about it because they may teach him their own bad habits (not that I'm not, lol). For example, pretty much all the older kids on the team do the classic S-shaped scull.
My question is as follows; I am trying to teach him the high elbow and getting a feel for "hard water". We're also working on timing his hip rotation to use that vertical forearm. As you can imagine, it's difficult for him to rotate the arm and shoulder like that during the stroke, although he can on dry land. I noticed Popov pronating his hand (palm facing out) in the beginning of his catch, which I imagine does 2 things; one, scull a little, and two, get him into the EVF. Is this a pretty standard thing? I don't see Thorpe do it on video, but maybe I'm not seeing it well amid the bubbles. I myself have more or less been able to get a reasonable EVF without pronation, but maybe I should do the same? The second question is do most of you prefer the front quadrant style? Again, Thorpe begins his catch as his recovering arm passes his head and he starts rotating, while Popov begins his catch earlier.
If you could give me advise on these issues, particularly as it pertains to teaching a child, I would be appreciative. Sorry for the lengthy post.
Former Member
I watched the go swim video. Looks a lot like EVF to me. Are you under the impression she is moving her arms through the water. To me she puts her hand in, anchors and her hands almost come out in the same place that they entered.
I think that the search for universal truths is a recipe for frustration in stroke analysis. In the go swim video in one clip she is swimming very close to a catch up stroke, only starting the pull when her recovering hand is almost entering the water, later (about the 1:59 mark) you see a totally different timing, starting the pull as her other hand leaves the water. Most people adjust their stroke timing beyond simple tempo depending on whether they are swimming a 50 or a 1500.
Lots of people would strongly disagree but I think that rotation is not about generating torque, it is about positioning your body and limbs in ways that let you use big strong muscles and maximize streamlining and anchor your limbs to best effect given that joints are limited in the ways they can move.
During the stroke analysis session on my last SwimTrek trip the instructor gave a useful demonstration. Hold onto some immovable object with your arm extended directly in front of you and press down. With your other hand feel your lat under the arm you are pressing with. You will note that it isn't very tense. If you hold it for a while you will begin to feel your shoulder muscles tiring. Now rotate so that the arm is now extended directly out to the side and again press down. You should immediate feel the entire lat muscle tense. So being rotated on your side not only makes you more streamlined but it allows you to better engage your lats. You might find it useful to play around with pulling yourself up on the pool edge, trying different hand placements and arm positions to see where you get the most power. You will also find that at full extension above your head your lat is more engaged when your your palm is rotated outward. These are the sorts of things that confound any attempt at analysis that is based purely on theoretical efficiency of propelling surfaces.
When I looked at the first of your videos of your son it looked to me like he was doing a pretty good job of translating his rotation into propulsion, it looked to me like he just needs to get a better anchor/EVF and eventually put a little more muscle into pulling himself past that anchor. It looks like he's got a pretty good foundation. Good luck.
Disclaimer: my advice is worth what you paid for it, it's not meant to be authoritative, just to give you some things to try and to play with.
I watched the go swim video. Looks a lot like EVF to me. Are you under the impression she is moving her arms through the water. To me she puts her hand in, anchors and her hands almost come out in the same place that they entered.
I guess it depends on what you consider the anchoring position. Are you anchored to where your hand is when the arm is fully extended, or are you anchored after the arm is perpendicular to the pool bottom? In other words, as your forearm arcs from extended forward to facing down, are you pulling yourself forward (anchoring yourself) or is it a non-propulsive movement (arc) simply bringing the forearm to an anchored position. In the video clip, she is sometimes rotating while the forearm is arcing down and ends up flat when the forearm is truly perpendicular to pool bottom (front quadrant or catchup style). In other parts she has quickly gotten the forearm into that perpendicular position before rotating (more rotary style).
Thank you for your input. I see your point about the two different strokes she shows in the clip. The EVF seems easier to me in a catchup stroke because you are almost flat when getting to EVF, whereas it's tougher to achieve while rotated. Incidentally, I notice she gets her elbow out pretty wide on the catch, I'm wondering if that is something that might help me.
One last point, in my opinion the "Vertical" in EVF is a bit misleading, the important thing is to get the forearm perpendicular to the direction of travel not whether it is pointing at the bottom of the pool. Many excellent swimmers anchor with their arm in a diagonal orientation, and with that in mind I personally find that concentrating on getting my elbow out helps me get my forearm oriented correctly. I would prefer the term Early Perpendicular Forearm, perhaps George or Coach T will chime in if I'm on the wrong track, I have to admit that my thinking is colored by the fact I have poor flexibility in my shoulders.
I notice she gets her elbow out pretty wide on the catch, I'm wondering if that is something that might help me.
The wide position is not to my liking I still like the hand to travel the line on the bottom of the pool. I also do not like all the fingers pointing at the bottom of the pool. I prefer the side of the little finger at about a fortyfive degree angle to the bottom and the side of the thumb pointing towards the body. This way the body roll helps when applying the forearm (elbow to hand) pressure.
On the issue of the catch, I saw some photo frames of Grant Hackett where it seems that his hand pretty much stays in the same spot from the moment it is full extended. Here is the link.
www.vasatrainer.com/.../ERG_PART4.pdf
Is that the norm for most polished swimmers? Seems to me that most catch the water a little after that, as in those pictures you referenced Geochuck.
Anyhyow, I'm starting to get a much better feel for the water over the last few days. I'm trying to learn well for myself (I'm becoming addicted) and to help teach my son as well. My son's swim season ended, and I'm so proud of him as he improved tremendously through the season. His 25m is down from about 48s when he started to 32s now. I think most of his improvement has been in efficiency, because he has not quite caught on to the propulsive aspect yet. His backstroke improved from a zigzagging 50+sec to 37s. In practices when they would do 100m freestyle races he really shined because of his efficiency and ease of stroke. I don't know how good a swimmer he'll be ultimately, but it makes me happy he can even approach average in something athletic.
Quick question about my own swimming. I find that because I'm concentrating so much on my stroke mechanics, my breathing and endurance have been terrible. I used to have a much easier time of it when my stroke mechanics stunk (probably because my arms were comfortably slipping). For the most part I do fully exhale and my balance is pretty good. I purchased and am awaiting the Finis snorkel, hoping it will help me get comfortable with the mechanics (arms and kick, rhythm). I've read that some of you find this product helpful in that regard. Should I only concentrate on using the snorkel for a while (for stroke and flutter kick work), then return to breathing once everything else is second nature? Or should I mix it up, doing both? Basically how should I reintegrate the breathing? Thanks.
