Hi, I'm new to the board. I've read a lot of posts and think this is a great resource for people. Anyhow, a little background. My 8 year-old son, who has Asperger's syndrome and it's associated errrrr...lack of athleticism, is on the neighborhood swimming team. Surprisingly he really seems to enjoy swimming and gets excited about his improvements. He has improved from a 44 second 25 yard time to 34 seconds in this, his first year. I have never swam competitively but given his interest in swimming, I've developed a similar interest and have been reading about stroke mechanics while watching lots of video of Ian Thorpe and Alexander Popov. Of course I practice it on myself and have become infinitely better. I've been trying to teach my son proper technique as well, with some success. While other kids his age on the team (many more experienced) more or less bully their way through the water faster than him, I don't let him pull as hard as he can or stroke as hard as he can for obvious reasons...so he learns better. He will be taking lessons soon from one of the student coaches, although I'm a little weary about it because they may teach him their own bad habits (not that I'm not, lol). For example, pretty much all the older kids on the team do the classic S-shaped scull.
My question is as follows; I am trying to teach him the high elbow and getting a feel for "hard water". We're also working on timing his hip rotation to use that vertical forearm. As you can imagine, it's difficult for him to rotate the arm and shoulder like that during the stroke, although he can on dry land. I noticed Popov pronating his hand (palm facing out) in the beginning of his catch, which I imagine does 2 things; one, scull a little, and two, get him into the EVF. Is this a pretty standard thing? I don't see Thorpe do it on video, but maybe I'm not seeing it well amid the bubbles. I myself have more or less been able to get a reasonable EVF without pronation, but maybe I should do the same? The second question is do most of you prefer the front quadrant style? Again, Thorpe begins his catch as his recovering arm passes his head and he starts rotating, while Popov begins his catch earlier.
If you could give me advise on these issues, particularly as it pertains to teaching a child, I would be appreciative. Sorry for the lengthy post.
Former Member
Hi!
Each stroke has four quadrants, the first begins with the entry and the catch, the second is the power phase, the third is the when the stroke ends and the fourth is the recovery ( a little more complicated buy that's it in a nutshell). I notice that swimmers tend to over-emphasize the sculling so I de-empasize it. I put my swimmers, young and old, on a surfboard, cheap rectangular raft, or rescue board and have them paddle across the pool. Tell them to extend and rotate (EVF). When I talk about EVF I tell them to surfboard swim and they get it. We also have every swimmer from 4 to 100 perform EVF isometrics and shoulder cuff exercises ( with other exercises) at every practice, so they're strong enough to get into that position safely. I have swimmers improve their EVF and who have had severe shoulder problems train without aggravating their shoulder. Swimmers from 5 to 100 should be working on exercises that help them become more athletic and exercises to help them swim faster (they're not the same but both are important).
Go to youtube or google and type in EVF + Swimming and you'll get a good idea of what to do. It take 6 to 8 weeks of consistent EVF training to form that habit, so be patient. I also have swimmers exaggerate the extension of the freestyle by having them swim on their side while looking at the bottom of the pool. When they can begin establishing a catch in a streamlined position, WOW - they start looking like Olympians.
I think your focus on technique will go a long way in creating a foundation to help your swimmer find success. If you watch the Olympic trials you'll see the kind of strokes you want your swimmer copying. Good luck, Coach T.
The second question is do most of you prefer the front quadrant style?.
Watch the finals of the men's 1500 tonight and pay attention to Larsen Jensen and Erik Vendt. Both are very nice examples of front quadrant freestyle with almost a catch up stroke.
1. body position is key, alot of kids pick their head up so high that they are looking straight down the pool. Make sure that they are looking down but not dipping their head to deep.
2. Pull striaght not S-pull, do not let you're hand cross over the center line of the body.
3. Open recovery is the way to go. Im not talking about straight arm recovery but kind of a bent arm forward and down, not sidways, swining motion. It's alot better than the traditional high elbow push recovery.
. I noticed Popov pronating his hand (palm facing out) in the beginning of his catch, which I imagine does 2 things; one, scull a little, and two, get him into the EVF. Is this a pretty standard thing? I don't see Thorpe do it on video, but maybe I'm not seeing it well amid the bubbles. I myself have more or less been able to get a reasonable EVF without pronation, but maybe I should do the same?
I can tell you that Popov is very unique in his style and very few swimmers can swimming at your best with that same style, Popov have out-the-world flexibility in his shoulder so he can do things that nearly nobody else can match at his level of performance, if you pay attentions at his hand entry, he start from the mid-line just in front his head, outsweep a little, keeping high elbov position, very very hard to replicate let alone very ineffective if you've not that type of flexibility, moreover you'll slow your arm stroke ,you'll be more slow at the end. popov "draw" a very shallow s-shape form underwater stroke, borrowed from great matt biondi, not the new I-form now so popular. at end Popov is very beautiful to watch but not the swimmer that you want to imitate fully.
Thorpe is about 2 version, the younger Thorpe until early 2003, the older Thoper from early 2003-until retire, the first version use a more hybrid form of I-stroke front-quadrant style, with the hands passing nearly under the body, the second form is more a pure I-stroke, with a shorter stroke, wider entry, a little more flat on the water, hand passing out the body very similar to hackett but a little less extreme.
IMHO the "second version" of Thorpe is the way to go if you're looking for I-form stroke now so popular, on youtube there're a lot of video to watch.
Asperger's syndrome students would rather see and do, rather then listen to verbal instruction. Demonstrate and over exagerate each movement.
I would suggest lots of finger dragging, then instead of talking about reaching have him do the catchup stroke. Have his hands follow the black line on the bottom, this is a directional point for him. Make sure he touches his thighs. If you get a kick board hold it above his body and have him touch the board with his elbow, as his fingers drag across the top of the water.
Rolling will occur if not lift his leg at the thigh or hip with your hand to help the hip roll.
Asperger's syndrome students would rather see and do, rather then listen to verbal instruction. Demonstrate and over exagerate each movement.
I would suggest lots of finger dragging, then instead of talking about reaching have him do the catchup stroke. Have his hands follow the black line on the bottom, this is a directional point for him. Make sure he touches his thighs. If you get a kick board hold it above his body and have him touch the board with his elbow, as his fingers drag across the top of the water.
Rolling will occur if not lift his leg at the thigh or hip with your hand to help the hip roll.
Actually his recovery is pretty decent, it's his high elbow on the catch/pull that we're working on. You watch him from outside the water, and he has the prettiest stroke compared to the other kids; very smooth, nice body roll/rotation. People are impressed that he does bilateral breathing at his age every 3rd stroke, doesn't even lift his head and has his lead arm straight out in front of him while breathing. But whereas other kids are getting propulsion by pushing water laterally (you probably know what I'm talking about) he hasn't quite mastered the forearm propulsion with EVF. The other day out of curiosity I had him emulate the stroke the other kids are doing and boy did he motor down the pool. Then I told him to never do that again, lol.
He's improved greatly in keeping the elbow higher on the pull, but the arm still slips somehow. I think it will take time. Just today he lopped off 4 seconds in the 25, did it in 30 seconds. Thanks to everyone for all the advice. I think this may be one of those things that will just start to click with time.
He does have lots of time he is only eight. Main thing to think about is that he does not drop his elbow during the catch to finish phase of the stroke.
Well, a little update. Let me ask your opinions on something. My wife signed him up to take lessons from one of the swim team coaches (she's like 16 or so). The exact things I was concerned about came to fruition. She was teaching him the "s" pull and also having him push his hand back all the way to extension. Granted she is probably a much better swimmer than I, and he will probably learn a lot from her in many aspects of swimming, but I'm wondering if this will poison his stroke. Of course, if I butt in I will look like a jerk. Any thoughts on what to do?
Are you sure it is the "S" and what is wrong with a full extension??? The "I" stroke from above water looks like an "S" stroke to the untrained eye (water refraction).
I saw her demonstrating for him outside the water, drawing the "S". I agree with you that the straight pull does look like an "S" in the water.
The finish she is teaching maybe a way of improving what he is doing maybe too early an extraction. He may be to short on his catch to finish. More then worrying about the finish, I would be thinking about a clean extraction. Not pulling water forward on extraction. Smooth extraction not seeing water following the hand.
That's interesting. Traditionally I had always thought there should be a push back to full extension, but I read somewhere it was out of vogue now and the olympians are extracting/recovering earlier, with the elbow stil bent. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. What you said makes sense on the extraction, i.e. being clean.
Take a short video from different angles and let us see what he is doing.
Great idea, I'll do that later this week. Thanks for your help.
Age and comprehention is important here, he is 8 years old.
Are you sure it is the "S" and what is wrong with a full extension??? The "I" stroke from above water looks like an "S" stroke to the untrained eye (water refraction). The finish she is teaching maybe a way of improving what he is doing maybe too early an extraction. He may be to short on his catch to finish. More then worrying about the finish, I would be thinking about a clean extraction. Not pulling water forward on extraction. Smooth extraction not seeing water following the hand. Take a short video from different angles and let us see what he is doing.
Well, a little update. Let me ask your opinions on something. My wife signed him up to take lessons from one of the swim team coaches (she's like 16 or so). The exact things I was concerned about came to fruition. She was teaching him the "s" pull and also having him push his hand back all the way to extension. Granted she is probably a much better swimmer than I, and he will probably learn a lot from her in many aspects of swimming, but I'm wondering if this will poison his stroke. Of course, if I butt in I will look like a jerk. Any thoughts on what to do?
