2008 Santa Clara International Invitational May 15 - 18

This is an interesting discussion. In Sweden, Masters Swimming is considered a different sport than "regular" swimming. So to be able to compete in both Masters competitions and normal ones you have to have two different licenses, and I also swim for two different clubs. But.. if I sometimes do Masters swimming and sometimes "normal" swimming, am I then a Masters swimmer or a normal swimmer? For me it is simple: I am a Masters Swimmer at Masters meets and a regular swimmer at other meets. We can never set a Masters Record in any regular meet, because if so all "normal" swimmers could claim to also set MAster records in normal meets, even if they never participate in a MAsters Meet. Some years ago I swam the European Masters Championship. A few weeks earlier UK had the trial for the World Championship. Mark Foster missed the trial, so a bit disappoited he insted he choose to swim the Masters for once. Went 22.7 LCM in the 50 free. Guess if he won... I have done many better times in normal meets than in Masters Meets. Maybe due to competition, maybe due to pools. But they are and will not considered Master times and I try not to bother about that... for me it is a different thing. Ps. Kevin go ahead and make the same time at a Masters Meet and then there will be no discussion. I am sure you can and will soon. 57:00 is very good!! Good luck!

Who has said that? Ehoch: Good for him, but the whole "I broke a World Record" story that did not count" must be a joke. I am too lazy to check out all the 25-29 swimmers in the world, but I am sure there is somebody in that age-group going a 54+ in the 100 Back. Not sure where he is training - but honestly, I barely consider myself a good Masters swimmer and I am turning 40 this year. Jazz Hands: Randall Bal went 53.66 last year. Aaron Peirsol is going to turn 25 before the Olympics. This is why Masters records in the lower age groups aren't very meaningful. Sam Perry: A website of a 20 something guy who PROBABLY has never stopped swimming since college talking about all of the records he has broken or would have broken is meaningless. Don't get me wrong, HE IS A FAST SWIMMER, but doesn't hold a candle to folks like Michelle, Ande, Josh, etc. and all of the outside pressures we all have to deal with. We could argue about if these comments are saying he is "Not really that good." However, these are very negative comments about a masters swimmer that is swimming in the Olympic Trials and can make all of us proud in USMS. Kevin is one of the most motivated swimmers I have ever seen and I will give you an example of this motivation and commitment. Last fall, Kevin participated in the TYR Grand Prix Series that Mark Gill organizes for the Great Lakes Zone. Meets were held in Indy, Louisville, and Chicago. Kevin works a second job as a DJ doing weddings, graduations, and parties on the weekend. On the weekend of the second Grand Prix meet in Louisville, he had to work until 1:00 AM and then got in his car and drove 6 hours to Louisville so he could swim and attemp to break the World Records in the 50 and 100 Back at the meet Sunday morning. After the meet was over he got back on the road and drove 6 hours. How many swimmers are this moitivated to swim in a masters meet? When the 3 meet series was over he set 5 USMS National Records but came up short by .10 on his last attemp in the 50 Back. Everyone at the meet was impressed with his efforts on trying to improve his times with each swim he attended. Since the start of 2008, he has set 2 USMS National Records in the 50 Yard Back and they have since been broken. He went :23.06 and broke the record of :23.09 set back in 2000. On April 11, Matthew Marshall went :23.03 and broke Kevin's record. At the Michigan Masters State Meet he got the record back with a :23.01 but then last weekend William Liscinky went :22.89 and he lost it again. He has a great attitude because he says next year he will work harder and try to get the record back. He has true committment to USMS and you will definately see him in future years. Kevin has been a USMS All American for the last 3 years and this year was selected as a USMS Pool All Star in the 25-29 age group. He recieved the Lawrence Award from Michigan Masters for his Outstanding Performances in 2007.

Great job Kevin! Swim fast at Trials!

I can see there is really no good compromise here, if somebody in the 25-29 age bracket in the Mens 100m Back breaks the FINA masters world record it's "meaningless" to those on this forum because there are people like Piersol who are faster. Where is the line drawn? When do masters world records start being respected? Maybe it's 40-44, because then there's no USA-S swimmers left. Of course that only works on the mens side because Dara negates that theory. This topic has changed how I see FINA masters world records. I used to feel excited when I broke a record because I felt like "a record is a record". Getting a record is achieving something nobody else has achieved. All I said was that I went faster than the FINA world record for 25-29. I never claimed I got the record. Here is the exact quote from my website: "As it turns out my 100 Back LCM time of 57.00 is faster than the FINA Masters 25-29 World Record time but it doesn't count because it was performed under a USA-S sanctioned meet, therefore it only counts as a Masters American Record." ehoch, I don't really feel as though I was "complaining" as you so put it. Merely stating a fact. I'm sorry it was a "major problem". If it matters, I never even did the research. This fact was told to me by other masters swimmers who had followed my progress in the last 20 masters meets I've been to and were excited for me to swim a similar time in a masters sanctioned meet... it all goes back to why I'm proud to be in an organization that supports each other. Thank you to those who posted such nice comments, I look forward to representing USMS at the trials along with the other masters swimmers competing :)

Kevin, well said. Best of luck, we're pulling for you.

this thread is sad. Why look for the oppurtunity to take someone down? The typical reason is that you need more people to be at your level.

I didn't say Kevin is not fast. I've never even done a 57.0 in freestyle, so I have to respect that, especially because he is a fellow self-trained swimmer. I do think there's a reason FINA only allows swims from Masters meets to count for Masters world records. Otherwise, anyone could register as a Master and then just go around breaking world records without even showing up. Obviously Kevin is not just "anyone" in that sense. He's part of the Masters community. But there's no simple test of whether someone is a true Masters swimmer or just a ringer, except that if someone actually swims a time at a Masters meet, that time reflects the amount of preparation they put into Masters swimming.

this thread is sad. Why look for the oppurtunity to take someone down? The typical reason is that you need more people to be at your level. Who is taking whom down? Seems like a statement like "at your level" is a somewhat of a take down. Have you seen Hoch's level Not too many people could go to his level if they tried. No one on here came here to take someone down. Again, I reiterate what makes no sense to me on these boards is that when someone disagrees with an opinion, others think it is some personal attack or an attempt to "take someone down". Nothing was ever personal on this discussion until you and others implied it. I am done, I am sorry for making the thread sad.

Skip, While I appreciate all of your swimming knowlege (and I am not being sarcastic), it is truly amazing. Posting 3 quotes from Hoch, JH, and myself, I still see nothing stating: "He's really not that good" as was accused by Kirk are still unfounded. I still don't see anywhere that was said. No one had directly attacked Kevin, if you look at my posts I even said 57.00 was fast (which it is). This is just another example (as there are many other occasions on this board) that when someone tries to make a point that others on here don't like and people think it is some personal attack. I don't know Kevin, can't speak for JH or Hoch, so how could it be personal like: He's really not that good That is not a very intelligent statement because :57.00 is that good. Kevin, for the record, I am glad you are here and hope to see you swim that fast some time, as I know it is impressive. I applaud you for achieving a goal like making the Olympic Trials and wish you all the best in Omaha. I hope you understand it is not a personal thing. I (and others) were just trying to ask the question if that is a true representation of the best MASTERS SWIMMER in the age group. Or are there others close to your age (or older for that matter) that are quicker.

I also suspect that a lot of admiration and respect goes out when Dennis Baker or Kevin makes a cut and swims at trials. Is this a serious comparison? A mid 40s swimmer to a 27 year old? Pretty weak argument there.