The Fall of Auburn

As to the doping issue---you of all people being the consummate pragmatist have to admit that quite a few of these recent swimming achievements are way, way over the edge of plausible. The only one I came out and said, "I do not believe" is Dara's comeback. A few others are suspect.... I do find some achievements to defy logic. But, not all achievements are dope induced. Not all achievements are due to new technology. Not all sub-par achievements spell the end of a program or swimming in general. We hopefully agree on that. There seems to be no real consistent argument on these topics. For instance, a performance that is not deemed good enough is due to poor coaching or poor technique or poor training or what not. Conversely, a great performance is due to new suits or drugs solely. Seems like a no-win these days on this forum. I just hope this same logic is applied to all swimmers at Nats, so we can be equal opportunity offenders.

You could approach the story of NCAAs as The Fall of Auburn, I suppose, but that's not how I'd do it. The story should be The Rise of Arizona. I agree. After all, let's give credit where credit is due. Arizona won both men's and women's titles not because of the demise of Auburn (or Texas), but on the performances of their athletes. Face it. This was their year.

Not me Geek---I ate chicken little--:D

Hard to believe that right now the USA is actually probably the strongest it has ever been. We'll see. It was true last year, at least on the men's side. What a bunch of chicken littles. ...as if we should expect anything more in an opinion forum. We're not exactly doing journalism here, but I'm glad people are looking at the sport with a critical eye. You could approach the story of NCAAs as The Fall of Auburn, I suppose, but that's not how I'd do it. The story should be The Rise of Arizona.

"You could approach the story of NCAAs as The Fall of Auburn, I suppose, but that's not how I'd do it. The story should be The Rise of Arizona." Although I root for the Cal Bears--you hit the nail on the head with that post. The Arizona Woman's team was strong and deep! I was impressed--

"Someone will accuse both Kenyon and Arizona of doping next" Wow, Geek---normally, you are not that cynical---what's up there? As to the doping issue---you of all people being the consummate pragmatist have to admit that quite a few of these recent swimming achievements are way, way over the edge of plausible. The only one I came out and said, "I do not believe" is Dara's comeback. A few others are suspect....

Kirk: Losing Jessica Hardy when she turned pro hurt Cal's points this year a lot. But, they hung in there and did not back up... When Hardy went pro it took the team totally off guard....She is one fast B stroker.

I believe there is a subtle distinction that not everyone around here seems to understand. It's one thing to wonder if an athletic performance might have been enhanced by drugs. It's an altogether different thing to claim to know someone has jumped ship at an athletic program because you know he is a cheater. Big difference in my book. A subtle distinction to you might be a non-existent distinction to others. I don't see how this is any different than all but saying that a swimmer is cheating. I went back and read some of the threads about Torres and Sullivan and they appear, to me, to go beyond wondering and wander into the accusing!

"For instance, a performance that is not deemed good enough is due to poor coaching or poor technique or poor training or what not. Conversely, a great performance is due to new suits or drugs solely." Geek, you make an excellent point here. I think quite a few recent records are pure as snow and Kate Ziglers 1500 comes to mind. I have to openly admit that PED use has made me question some swims that in years past I'd never have qiven a second glance or thought. It has tainted my long standing positive outlook and belief that we should look for the best in people rather then the worst. I am guilty--and it's sad.

Are you talking out your backside here or do you actually have some evidence that this position is a huge setback for Coach Marsh? His wife was the one who told me about the move they were making long before it happened. The way she told it, it was a great opportunity. What is your opinion based on? It is my opinion that when a world class coach who leaves one of the most elite college programs of all time the year before he may very well have set a new record (6) of consecutive championships it raises red flags... WTH? Can you back this up with ANY evidence? There was nothing to "disclose" when Marsh left as far as I know. He was offered the USOC position and took it. If you are going to besmirch Marsh's reputation you'd better have some evidence because all I've ever known/heard about him has been reputable. I was not first person to any of the things that I brought up...and I should have been clearer in my post which I have edited along with adding a question mark to the threads title to make sure no one else confuses discussion of things we have heard/read and have concerns about vs. making any accusations. I will say that I know Auburn swimmers, I know a fair amount of coaches in the college ranks and the questions I brought up have been spoken of by a number of people whom I respect and trust and in my opinion were worthy of bringing to a swimming forum to see what others may have heard or what they think as well. clear enough?