LZR - It's Faster, but by how much ?

I dunno guys and girls. A lot of defense on suits has been made with the it's the swimmer not the suit. Now it's 2 suits which may aid buoyancy not just compress and repel...it's becoming a grey smudge "in the spirit of the sport" for me. So now you'll have to be able to pay for 2 expensive suits for your kids when this filters down to age group.

I notice that as well as frequently adjusting the chest area many of the women are putting water on their chests under the suits.Just an observation.

I think Fina would first have to find that the second suit was a "device" within the meaning of 10.7, then have to find that the second suit aided a swimmer's: I think Fina will likely address the issue with an amendment to the General Rule . . . but Fina better anticipate the response of the manufacturers and specify a maximum number of layers, thickness, and everything else it can think of. I'm thinking of ski jumping here; I believe the rules eventually had to address the surface area of the suits which were beginning to look like small hang gliders. Or, they could just define the word "swimsuit." As it's apparently unclear what that means. :doh:

Ande, You contribute so much information on swimming in general to everyone I probably shouldn't have picked on you for the tech suits. Sorry about that, but I was in rant mode. You had some incredible swims at Nationals, but I don't believe the suits helped our times much or at all. I was next to you in the 50 free and the reason you went so fast is that your start and turn were very good and these don't seem like things the suit helps you much on. O.K., here is another John Smith example since I am somewhat familiar with John Smith from college swimming. John, I apologize in advance for using you as an example twice. I think the example works equally well with your evil twin or any number of masters swimmers. Maybe John did swim slower at Nationals than he is capable of, but many swimmers did because it was late in the day on the last day. John in college was about 2 seconds faster than me in the 100 free. We both wore speedo briefs or another brand at the time. John has probably stayed in better shape than me over the years, but I am willing to say there is no difference there. We probably both trained as hard as we could in college and we probably train about the same now. We may have both swam slower than what we are capable of in the 100 at Nationals in Austin. I wore speedo briefs and John wore whatever tech suit he wore. The result was still almost exactly a 2 second difference. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think when a swimmer is prepared and on the blocks and ready to swim as fast as they can they swim virtually the same regardless of the suit they are wearing. I am willing to take the risk that I am short changing my times and place in the masters swimming world. I just don't think I am risking much and personally ranking one or two places lower makes no difference to me. I realize that most people when they get to their taper meet are probably not willing to take the risk of not wearing a tech suit, but I think more people should try and I think it would have minimal impact their time and place. One more thing, I think the tech suits do make you think about your body position more. After wearing the tech suit I do believe I made some adjustments to my body position. So, I did get some technique benefit from the tech suit which I am willing to concede. Tim, feel free to rant all you want around here...thats part of the fun! It's even more fun when you can ruffle some feathers and or pull the "lurkers" out there into debates. About the suits...this is just the latest in a long line of advancements in them, just as bikes have gotten lighter/stiffer, the golf club wars, etc. etc. Bottom line is as each generation is introduced and approved I will continue to move forward with using them. And although you may not have seen a difference I can tell you first hand without any doubt there is a substantial difference for me in how fast my unrested swims are with one vs. without...we'll see in a week if the drops are the same but I'm guessing they will be smaller.

More LZR observations: --I saw at least two Chinese swimmers who had silver duct tape over the Speedo logos on their LZRs. --Cullen Jones wore a LZR in the prelims of the 4 x 100 Free relay, but he had blacked out the Speedo logo with a magic marker. (He must be sponsored by Nike, because he wears Nike apparel in his commercials.) --Matt Grevers didn't wear the USA LZR suit in the 4 x 100 Free relay; he wore a TYR.

I generally concede that the full LZR or other tech suits are generally a half second faster per 100. However, if the LZR is always faster, how do we explain some of the best swimmers not always wearing a full LZR or an equivalent? I find it odd that Phelps uses the LZR in the 100 Free, but wears jammers in the IMs and the fly (I don't remember him wearing the LZR in the fly recently, but I could be wrong). I think Phelps wore jammers in the 200 free semis too. Park wore the jammers in the 400 free which seemed highly unusual to me. Lochte wears the jammers a lot too. There are a number of top swimmers that don't appear to making logical suit choices based on conventional suit wisdom. I have never worn the jammers, but I just can't imagine they provide nearly the benefit of the full LZR (you don't have the compression or the bouyancy, right?). Don't we have to assume at that level of swimming everyone is making the suit choice that will give them the fastest time in a given event? So, maybe tech suits are not right for everyone or for every event. I may be willing to give up time for comfort, but why are Phelps, Lochte, Park and others willing to do so? The relay last night was incredible. Hard not to concede that those times were not partially "suit" aided. I am probably wrong in my own suit choices, but I am stubborn! Signed, A Lurker The suits are very tight and a lot of swimmers feel they are to restrictive. The effect they have is also related to how "big" someone is as well as body fat...in other words older swimmers with a lot of loose skin and/or a nice "roll" around the midsection will seen more of an effect than a world class swimmer with 2-3% body fat. Try one of the suits and you'll understand...easy to be skeptical when you've never put one on.

I generally concede that the full LZR or other tech suits are generally a half second faster per 100. However, if the LZR is always faster, how do we explain some of the best swimmers not always wearing a full LZR or an equivalent? I find it odd that Phelps uses the LZR in the 100 Free, but wears jammers in the IMs and the fly (I don't remember him wearing the LZR in the fly recently, but I could be wrong). I think Phelps wore jammers in the 200 free semis too. Park wore the jammers in the 400 free which seemed highly unusual to me. Lochte wears the jammers a lot too. There are a number of top swimmers that don't appear to making logical suit choices based on conventional suit wisdom. I have never worn the jammers, but I just can't imagine they provide nearly the benefit of the full LZR (you don't have the compression or the bouyancy, right?). Don't we have to assume at that level of swimming everyone is making the suit choice that will give them the fastest time in a given event? So, maybe tech suits are not right for everyone or for every event. I may be willing to give up time for comfort, but why are Phelps, Lochte, Park and others willing to do so? The relay last night was incredible. Hard not to concede that those times were not partially "suit" aided. I am probably wrong in my own suit choices, but I am stubborn! Signed, A Lurker

I definitely didn't read all or even most of the posts. I saw a lot of discussion of rules and individual comparisons of suits and their benefits, but nothing on a group basis or anything taking into account technique/training drops absent a suit change. I saw some comments that several people think it helps their mid-season or untapered swims which makes sense with added bouyancy. Any time benefit conclusions for tapered swims or is it kind of a work in progress? Sorry for repeating old ground. Tim

Tim, I suggest swimmers use the scientific method in practice on themselves figure out which tech suit works best for them 1. Define the question 2. Gather information and resources (observe) 3. Form hypothesis 4. Perform experiments and collect data 5. Analyze data 6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis 7. Publish results 8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists) spend a lot of time on step 4 my experiments are sprints for time at the end of practice wearing different tech suits. We need to have open minds test and observe the results It would be helpful for coaches with access to many swimmers and many suits to do test sets and compare results to figure out what truly works best for their swimmers I want to figure what works best for me in each event I think if I do enough experiments I'll eventually start to observe repeated patterns. I report this info in my blog and I hope it leaves a trail for kindred spirits to follow and provides a forum for us to share and discuss I haven't tested the tyr or LZR I believe the hineck pro and Blue Seventy Nero Comps are excellent suits Each swimmer also has to factor in their personal budgets. How much can you afford to spend on suits each year? each swimmer needs to experiment and figure out what type of training works best for them. I agree that the tech suits are beneficial. I just can't rationalize the benefit versus comfort issue in the events I care about (400 IM mainly). The benefit might be more for some than others and in some circumstances such as IM given a persons body type it might not make much of a difference at all. I am still shocked that Park did not wear a full tech suit in the 200 free and was second. If the full LZR is worth half a second per 100, then Park would have gone 1:43.8? Holy crap. Maybe Phelps' world record will be challenged if Park just makes some equipment changes. I am wondering if anyone would be up for a masters tech suit semi-scientific comparison next year at SCY Nationals. Break it up into 2 classes of swimmers: 1. Control group - Those that wore speedo briefs or an older generation tech suit without bouyancy benefits, etc. in SCY Nationals last year and will wear the same or similar suit next year. No moving up from briefs to a non-bouyancy tech suit allowed in this group. You have to stay with the same suit that you swam in last year. I guess we could allow people that wore a LZR or B70 last year who are wearing the same in 2009 to be in this group too. I am thinking that there is just some natural improvement here due to technique or training that we will see, but maybe I am wrong. 2. Unlimited class - Those that wore speedo briefs or an older generation tech suit in SCY Nationals last year, but this year they wear LZR, Blue 70, or any similar bouyancy aided suit. Wearing multiple suits is also allowed - the more the better. I guess you don't necessarily have to have swim at SCY Nationals, but you must have comparable meets that you tapered for each year. We pick a few events that draw a decent number of swimmers such as the 50 Free, 100 Free, 100 IM, or others where we would have a good representation. Swimmers would have to have trained seriously and reasonably equally for both nationals with the intent of at least going as fast in 2009 as 2008. You can train anyway you want with the intent on going fast. Everyone can make whatever technique, turn, or other improvements they would like. I am just curious what the numbers would look like and how much the suit improvement varies by person/event/age. If the numbers turn out to be higher than half a second per 100, you might even convince me to give up comfort for a time drop. There were not too many of the latest bouyancy aided suits at SCY nationals last year, but I imagine we will see a lot more in 2009. So, this might be the best opportunity to do such a comparison as long as there are a reasonable number of people that don't upgrade suits and stay in the control group. I volunteer for the control group. Anyone else willing to participate for the sake of quantifying the LZR/B70 benefits at the masters level? Just need what suit you wore in 2008, your 2008 times for the 50 free, 100 free, and 100 IM, or other events and whether you will be in the control group or unlimited group. You can change your mind regarding your group selection anytime between now and SCY Nationals. If the time improvement difference between the groups is more than half a second per 100 on average, I will contribute the cost of a B70 to the bar tab on the last night of Nationals. Any other wagers? Maybe if the difference is less than .4 or .35 seconds per 100, then the unlimited group buys for the control group or vice versa? No sand baggers in the control group! I assume anyone that buys a new LZR or B70 to be in the unlimited group will not be a sand bagger. Anyone in? Tim

I've seen some references to people getting the B70 wet before swimming to improve its stretchiness. Is that advisable? Just wondering, as I know other technical suits are better dry. I am attempting to gather "data," but other factors are mucking up the analysis. Which seems fairly common.