LZR - It's Faster, but by how much ?

Tim here's a few replies However, I would bet most of us could improve more through improved technique/starts/turns, conditioning, lifting weights, losing some pounds, etc. Why don't we spend more time discussing those elements of our swimming? I've spent a lot of time on that, both training and writing read swim faster faster it covers the gamut at the end of the season each of us has what we have I'm just bringing up topics for discussion and reporting what elite athletes are doing on phelps maybe so far he hasn't worn the LZR hineck because he's saving it for the Olympics I am staying in the early 80s with my suit selection. and that choice may cost you suit choice is part of the reason for my recent time improvements i feel better about dropping time it's hard to figure out what came from where why do we care so much at the masters level? I have a lot of readers and like to experiment for them and write about my results and experiences "I have seen him go 47 flat in a LZR or another tech suit in Austin. Was the difference due to lower altitude or was he bettered conditioned in Austin or was it the suit or that he was tapered or that he just tried harder due to better competition or ego or perhaps the UT pool was a factor or maybe it was the superior TexMex or the caffeine intake was higher?" john would and should have gone much faster in the 100 free but the 100 free was the last event on the last day john was tired If you fell a place lower because you didn't wear a tech suit or swam half a second slower, would it matter to you? it matters to some and doesn't matter to others Why are we as masters swimmers so obsessed with tech suits? Why do we waste our money? Ande, I think you might need an intervention soon because you seem a bit addicted to tech suits. I like to experiment and share information with readers I am training to race and improve Improvement comes from making good training choices and aligning factors suits aren't immaterial success factors in our I'm glad you I can easily discount and forgo. part of the preparation process is equipment choice you can choose to use an aspect or not

I swam at a USS meet a couple weeks ago wearing the B70 for most events. I was unshaved/untapered but went times almost exactly the same as my shaved/tapered times from last summer when I wore an FSII. Some swims were slightly faster (200 free, 100 back), some slightly slower (100 fly, 200 back) but all within a couple of tenths of my rested times. The only time that was well off my rested time was the 200 fly (almost 3 seconds off last year)...and I didn't wear the suit at all because I couldn't stomach the thought of constricting my chest while coming home in the 2-fly. Then again, that is an event where I tend to drop a lot of time when I rest (often 6-7 seconds) so I wasn't displeased. The big question for me is, will I get the same kind of time drops when I taper as I am used to getting (normally I wear briefs or jammers when I am unrested). Maybe wearing the B70 reproduces the feeling of shaving to some extent, so it helps more unrested than when rested. I guess we'll see in a week or so...assuming my current beach taper pays off :) I like the suit in terms of durability and ease of putting it on. I didn't really feel any buoyancy advantage, though I know many (most?) disagree. Maybe it depends on body type and stroke mechanics; I tend to ride pretty high in the water anyway. It may have helped my underwaters, hard to say for sure. (If so, I would expect it to be a greater advantage SCY/SCM than in LCM.)

Continuing my idea: Do the swimmers who recently broke world records with the LZR actually believe they are better athletes than the swimmers whose records were broken? If an LZR really does provide an advantage, then are we not comparing apples to oranges. This is why I will never wear an LZR. When I break a record, I want to know that I broke the record because of my ability, training, and determination, not technology. How does your theory hold up if the swimmer wearing an LZR broke his/her own world record?

Continuing further with my idea: When a U.S. swimmer wearing an LZR wins at the Olympics against swimmers who do not wear an LZR, how do we really know that the U.S. swimmer is the best athlete? This is why U.S. swimmers should not wear the LZR. When a U.S. swimmer wins, I would like to believe that they won because of ability, training, and determination, not technology. Unfortunately, any win, record, or other achievement by a U.S. swimmer wearing the LZR will be in doubt. Don't really put much stock in this arguement, since B70, TYR and Arena all seem to have created suits that are equal to the LZR. Besides, a swimmer winning an event probably won't sit there and wonder "am I really that much better?" They are going to be celebrating winning an Olympic medal...period.

If a one swimmer one suit rule comes in I wonder if the prospect of spending 20 minutes with one's privates on display, and not being able to change on deck will have any impact... If I were looking for a rationale for limiting to one suit I would look at the approval process and say that the LZR/B70 combo constituted the swimmer's costume and that the combo had not been approved as a suit. Hopefully no world records will be set in combos so FINA will feel it can ban them without losing face.

Your arguments seem kinda whiney and defensive. Thank you for opening the door to personal attacks. If my arguments are "kinda whiney and defensive" then it is fair for me to say that your arguments are based upon a lack of intelligence and character.

Thank you for opening the door to personal attacks. If my arguments are "kinda whiney and defensive" then it is fair for me to say that your arguments are based upon a lack of intelligence and character. Her arguements are based on reason. The swimsuit is only one thing that goes into someone winning/losing or going faster or slower. Fort is saying that the swimmer must put in the work, do the all the necessary things right(sleep...food...dryland/cross training...mental approach...techincal approach) to be put in a position to win a medal. You can put a good swimmer in any of the modern swim suits and they will still swim just as fast. Swimsuits are being given way tooo much credit. Do they help, sure, but it is still up to the SWIMMER to do the race and everything prior to the race. If a person believes all the results are soley based on a swimsuit, then they have a lack of intelligence.

Ande, You contribute so much information on swimming in general to everyone I probably shouldn't have picked on you for the tech suits. Sorry about that, but I was in rant mode. You had some incredible swims at Nationals, but I don't believe the suits helped our times much or at all. I was next to you in the 50 free and the reason you went so fast is that your start and turn were very good and these don't seem like things the suit helps you much on. O.K., here is another John Smith example since I am somewhat familiar with John Smith from college swimming. John, I apologize in advance for using you as an example twice. I think the example works equally well with your evil twin or any number of masters swimmers. Maybe John did swim slower at Nationals than he is capable of, but many swimmers did because it was late in the day on the last day. John in college was about 2 seconds faster than me in the 100 free. We both wore speedo briefs or another brand at the time. John has probably stayed in better shape than me over the years, but I am willing to say there is no difference there. We probably both trained as hard as we could in college and we probably train about the same now. We may have both swam slower than what we are capable of in the 100 at Nationals in Austin. I wore speedo briefs and John wore whatever tech suit he wore. The result was still almost exactly a 2 second difference. I don't think this is a coincidence. I think when a swimmer is prepared and on the blocks and ready to swim as fast as they can they swim virtually the same regardless of the suit they are wearing. I am willing to take the risk that I am short changing my times and place in the masters swimming world. I just don't think I am risking much and personally ranking one or two places lower makes no difference to me. I realize that most people when they get to their taper meet are probably not willing to take the risk of not wearing a tech suit, but I think more people should try and I think it would have minimal impact their time and place. One more thing, I think the tech suits do make you think about your body position more. After wearing the tech suit I do believe I made some adjustments to my body position. So, I did get some technique benefit from the tech suit which I am willing to concede.

Plus, despite the fact that one suit is legal, I see no reason why multiple suits couldn't have a collectively illegal effect. Line drawing is a fact of life. And how hard is it here? One swimmer, one suit. I think Fina would first have to find that the second suit was a "device" within the meaning of 10.7, then have to find that the second suit aided a swimmer's: Speed; Buoyancy; or Endurance I hate my FS Pro man-girdle enough that I can't imagine imagine wearing 2 of them would help my endurance. Buoyancy? I happen to believe my tech suits float me like a cork, but Fina ruled otherwise. So unless there is some synergistic effect resulting from adding a second non-buoyant suit to the first non-buoyant suit which magically creates buoyancy where once was none, Fina can't go here. I'd like to see the scientific testing showing that 0+0=more than 0. Speed? Of course they increase speed, but Fina has already blown past this issue, I believe by distinguishing the "swim costume" from a "device." I suppose Fina could argue that the second suit is a device, but that seems less than persuasive. I think Fina will likely address the issue with an amendment to the General Rule . . . but Fina better anticipate the response of the manufacturers and specify a maximum number of layers, thickness, and everything else it can think of. I'm thinking of ski jumping here; I believe the rules eventually had to address the surface area of the suits which were beginning to look like small hang gliders.

Phelps wears jammers in the I M.