After seeing a woman break 24 seconds and I think we can stop the discussion of "IF" the LZR suit is faster and start thinking "how much faster".
The previous line of suits (Fastskin and so on) were pretty similiar to a shaved swimmer. Sure - they do feel like they make you float, but overall the times seemed to move along "in line" with what I would expect to see in terms of improvements in the sport. If the previous suits would have been that much faster than shaving, you would have never seen people just using the legskins. By the way - for us Masters swimmers there was always the added benefit of keeping in all the "extra layers of skin".
So how much faster are the LZR suits ?
If I had to guess based on the results so far, I would say 0.25 to 0.30 per 50 and double that for the 100. I can see the Bernard going 48 low in the 100 and I can see Sullivan getting close or just breaking the 50 record. It makes sense that Libby Lenton would swim a 24.2 or so in the 50.
I think one of the top regular teams out there should do a test - you need a good amount of world class swimmers training together to be able to do a test. Here is the test I would propose:
8-10 swimmers
2 days of testing
4x50 on 10 minutes all out
Day 1 - swim 2 with a Fastskin2 followed by 2 with the LZR
Day 2 - swim 2 with the LZR followed by 2 with the Fastskin2
Get the averages of all 10 swimmers - maybe drop the high and low and there you go.
Why do the test ? I would HAVE to know. Swimming is a big part of your life and you just set a massive PR using this new technology - my very first question would be " How much was me and how much was the suit?"?
(I am a retired Physics Instructor who did quite a bit of swimming many years ago. see www.SdogV.com..I am now 80.)
Echoing Leonard Jansen, a very big welcome! I have sent a few ultra-long-distance OW swimmers with questions to your site; someone had questions about swimming from ca. Michigan City or Benton Harbor west across southern Lake Michigan, about 30 miles to landfall.
The emotional issues surrounding the LZR brouhaha might not be resolved with a physics tank experiment. Human interest is drawn to the person and the meet. Reminds me of the classic situation, two designated warriors battling it out in the armor of their honorable ancestors while their respective armies sit quietly on the Plain of Troy behind them, waiting for the outcome. Achilles sulks in his tent.
Regards, VB
which is why if you increase the surface area of a swimmer's hands
the swimmer should be able to engage the more effectively
The main problems with human swimming VS aquatic animal swimming are at least the following:
Lack of efficient propulsion (human hands and feet have little area to provide adequate engagement with the water)
Dolphin 2
which is why if you increase the surface area of a swimmer's hands
the swimmer should be able to engage the more effectively
which is why FINA is rumored to be considering outlawing Lee Press On Nails and the like, particularly for 45 year old men who really ought to know better.
Since FINA seems to be perfectly OK with the “mechanization” of swimming through the use of "low drag" suits, I just happened to meet with a member of the U.S. Navy Seals (a division of the military which has been performing extensive scientific research on human swimming) and we had a discussion about this suit technology issue.
The main problems with human swimming VS aquatic animal swimming are at least the following:
Lack of efficient propulsion (human hands and feet have little area to provide adequate engagement with the water)
Lack of kinesiological capability (affecting changes in body position, negotiating turns, etc.)
Lack of the following: submerged breathing capability, abdominal muscle resistance to hydrostatic pressure, adequate lung capacity, rapid metabolism, and general endurance
Human's lack of bio-psychological adaptation to being in an aquatic environment
Severe “form” drag of the human body (rather than natural skin drag)
With regard to Item , he said that “form” drag of the human body itself (rather than any surface drag that might be due to the texture of bare human skin itself) is the most serious cause of drag and accordingly, the Seals has never felt that reducing “surface” drag has been a significant problem worthy of any consideration. The main reason the Seals use suited swimming is for thermal/environmental protection and none of their suits have ever been provided with drag reducing characteristics.
Considering the fact that there are at least 4 other items that influence human swimming more than skin drag, who (and why) came up with the idea that reducing surface (skin) drag should be the optimal approach to swimming faster? Since FINA is giving such lenient approval to tech suits which purportedly reduce surface drag, why not allow the use of fins to mitigate the lack of propulsion alluded to in Item ?
Fins would provide a much greater increase in speed at much lower cost (and also eliminate the discomfort of having your body shrink wrapped in waterproof clothing). Fins have been on the market for over 60 years and you can pick up a set of foot and hand fins for a fraction of the cost of an expensive tech suit.
However, it's definitely to the advantage of Speedo, Tyr, Nike, etc. to have swimmers wearing $200 tech suits instead of the plain old $20 briefs (and using other relatively inexpensive accessories) which haven't produced the enormous amount of revenue (and brand recognition) that the suit makers are raking in these days.
As pointed out by another post on this subject, there seems to be a “conflict of interest” between FINA who issues approvals on the suits and the suit manufacturers themselves:
forums.usms.org/showpost.php
However, it’s rather obvious that FINA has opted for the most expensive (and the most profitable for the suit makers) approach to swimming faster and setting new world records. With all the $$$ involved in the tech suit craze, if you don’t think that FINA and the suit makers are in kahoots with each other, I’ve got a beach front condo for sale in Kansas!!! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Dolphin 2
If you don’t think that Fina and the suit makers are in kahoots with each other, I’ve got a beach front condo for sale in Kansas!!! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
For how much?
We actually do have some lakes, believe it or not. They're all man-made, though.
Much of technique is to decrease form drag,which is a bigger factor than surface drag(but less than wave drag at faster speeds on the surface.) Suits like the LZR may decrease form drag also by their compression effect,especially the LZRs "Corset" effect.
Does anyone understand how the shift of center of buoyancy vs center of gravity effect works with these suits? Tyr says that the reason the new suits may you feel like their buoyant is that they shift the center of buoyancy due to the compression, but can that apply to legskins? Shouldn't compression of the legs make them denser and less buoyant?
Defying the Japanese Swimming Authorities,Kitajima put on a LZR and broke the 200 BR World Record by a second.Since Hansen is under contract with Nike,it will be interesting to see what he does.
