We had a videotaping session in practice on Wed and I got some video of my butterfly. I've been trying to work on my butterfly lately but I could really use some pointers and suggestions for specific things to work on and how to work on them.
Clearly the turnover is too slow. Lack of range of motion in my shoulders doesn't allow me to keep my hands at the surface while my chest is down the way that people like Phelps do. In the underwater side view it looks like my hips sink way too much and then don't quite make it back up to the surface, but I don't know what to do about that other than a quicker recovery.
youtube.com/watch
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
the major thing you're missing is intensity. Maybe you just weren't trying very hard, but that looked like you were half asleep.
I think there's some truth in that, at least in that there is a minimum speed at which I can swim the style I am working on. When practicing with fins if I work up a little extra speed off the wall before starting full stroke, even if I then don't use my legs much the rest of the length. The faster I go the easier it is to stay high in the water.
In any case, I am still working on the various tips people have given and feel I am making progress, hopefully the team will do another video night soon so I can see if I'm on the right track.
... The faster I go the easier it is to stay high in the water....
some days i feel this is an undeniable truth... some days i'm not so sure.
hi Lindsay... not seen you post here in a while until just recently... welcome back. i recall that i joined this board about the time i started really getting into my fly practice. i've watched all of your threads and posts, especially on fly, with great interest. thanks for the updates and recent contributions.
i really like your teeter-totter analogy... very coolbeans. ;-)
when i watch your fly vid here on this thread the first things that pop into my head are:
1. he seems really tight across the shoulders on the recovery
2. he seems to go up more than forward on the breath
these are common problems... i'm more-or-less still dealing with both myself.
about all i can offer for a solution is study, practice, and a good coach.
based on my own experience i'm at a point where i can experiment with body position and movement in my fly practice. i've been doing some fly at every practice for well over 5 years now.
right now i'm experimenting a lot with shoulder positioning and rotation.
i'm also experimenting with body position and movement a lot.
more specifically i'm trying to maintain more suppleness in my stroke... relaxing into it.... it's that Yoga thing all over again... relaxing the muscles you don't need, and activating the muscles you do need to accomplish the task. That Frolander Flexible Legkicks vid that George put up comes immediately to mind. (if you can download vids like this and watch them in something like QuickTime you can step them through one frame at a time... VERY Coolbeans!)
i think the most basic problem regular folks have in starting fly is that missed timing is so unforgiving, and this is combined with with some critical, and sometimes very subtle movements that are only well executed in a motion that flows, rather than jerks. in essence: finesse is WAY more important than speed and power.
i need to note here that i do what i now call 'glide fly'. the term 'slow fly' drew a lot of negative responses (and imagery too i believe). 'relaxed fly' was a bit better, but that gets some negative press and imagery too. both slow and relaxed may apply at times, but it is easier for me to visualize myself gliding through the motions. when i do this best, i definitely get the best results.
i recently feel i've made some breakthroughs with the 'pressing the chest' concept. i've noticed that the opening of the shoulders at the end of the recovery, combined with the timing and amplitude of the kick here, have a major impact on the efficiency of the stroke at this point.
i think i've been interpreting the 'pressing of the chest' all wrong all this time. it is not so much a press of the chest as it is an opening of the shoulders on entry (which forces the chest cavity down).
to illustrate this... try standing up in a streamlined position (arms up). if you want, try standing first with your back against a blank wall (with no baseboard if possible), and get as much of your body (heals to spine to hands) pressed against the wall as you can (this is like something i learned in yoga class). How well you can accomplish this will tell you how flexible, or supple, you are here.
with this flatness in mind, step away from the wall and rotate the shoulders back... like pinching the shoulder blades together. if you rotate your arms as well, so the thumbs point forward (i.e. thumbs first entry) you should be able to get even more shoulder rotation (pinching).
you should notice two things when you do this
1. the chest is 'pressed' forward (out, or what would be 'down' while doing fly)
2. the pelvis rotates back (your butt pooches out)
the kick will naturally flow into, or along with, this movement... Eureka!
i believe it is hard to detect this movement in the 'super swimmer' vids because they are so finely tuned the movement is remarkably subtle, plus the bubbles and/or camera angle can obscure the view. but if you look closely enough (in a frame by frame viewing)... you can detect it.
for me this is the truest glide point. if i can execute power and form correctly beforehand, i can easily maintain forward momentum here, and not have my speed completely die at this point (especially by breathing to late)... keeping the stroke as flat as possible... i can get a really good glide here.
try as i may, i need the time here to prepare my mind and (poor old tired arthritic) shoulders for the next cycle... so i glide a bit. on better days i have less of a glide and less amplitude in the stroke as well (and consequently a feeling of better speed for less effort). yet i still watch in total awe the vids of folks starting the catch pretty much immediately upon entry.
also, i know my arms usually go too deep on the entry, but keeping in the spirit of the times i choose to blame it on something else (namely my arthritic shoulders). this glide motion allows my body to flow through the (lowest amplitude possible) sine wave motion, with the (preferably RELAXED) arms drifting back to the surface during the glide, always maintaining forward motion, to start the next pull.
anyway... keeping things flat (streamlined) definitely helps my efficiency. and i too find that sometimes not trying to kick helps a lot in finding the correct timing and/or body position. breathing early is essential!
well... i reckon that is enough for now.
HTH.
Thanks a lot for writing that all out Bud! It will take some time to digest but I just had to reply on this one paragraph:
i think i've been interpreting the 'pressing of the chest' all wrong all this time. it is not so much a press of the chest as it is an opening of the shoulders on entry (which forces the chest cavity down).
I thought exactly that first sentence myself recently! I hadn't figured out the shoulder movement as exactly but I'm thinking that something similar is what causes my stroke to work so much better when I use a wider arm entry and extend my shoulders forward as I enter? That seems to let my chest "fall" downward instead of me "pressing" it downward, and my butt also seems to rise, in the sort of "pivot" motion I've observed in good fliers.
Anyway, thanks again, I'll digest further and reply more later.
to illustrate this... try standing up in a streamlined position (arms up). if you want, try standing first with your back against a blank wall (with no baseboard if possible), and get as much of your body (heals to spine to hands) pressed against the wall as you can (this is like something i learned in yoga class). How well you can accomplish this will tell you how flexible, or supple, you are here.
with this flatness in mind, step away from the wall and rotate the shoulders back... like pinching the shoulder blades together. if you rotate your arms as well, so the thumbs point forward (i.e. thumbs first entry) you should be able to get even more shoulder rotation (pinching).
I've always known I had poor flexibility/range of motion in my shoulders but... If I stand with my arms up in a streamlined position with hands together I can't move my shoulder blades at all! It takes a concerted effort to get my arms directly above my head at all, and once there I don't have any mobility at all. To get my shoulder blades together I have to move my hands out a little beyond shoulder width, which is where I've been trying to shift my hand entry to...
... I'm thinking that something similar is what causes my stroke to work so much better when I use a wider arm entry and extend my shoulders forward as I enter? That seems to let my chest "fall" downward instead of me "pressing" it downward, and my butt also seems to rise, in the sort of "pivot" motion I've observed in good fliers....
Very well put! And, I forgot to mention that nugget, so thanks for the reminder.
Yes! I also thrust the shoulders forward as well, as i'm 'opening up the chest' (as they say in yoga class), which results in the movement you just described.
i've been encouraged a lot lately to use the 'one armed fly' drill to get a better understanding of the timing. when i had it properly demonstrated to me recently, being told to pay particular attention to the head movement, the light bulb went on... so you may want to pursue that approach as well.
Sounds like you got all the information you need... and they you just need to work on it. (ha-ha, yeah rite! "just").
:">
Have Fun!
