How much does a good kick contribute?

here's some excellent SDK footage youtube.com/watch here's crockers 100 fl WR youtube.com/watch 100 fl prelims am sc champs youtube.com/watch 19.1 50 fr relay leadoff youtube.com/watch

Thanks Ande, I've really enjoyed the links you provided... Whoa.... on Ian Crocker's 50.4 100 fly LC

There is some great SDK footage on this Phelps video, Also, watching the underwater butterfly has been very useful... Getting your underwater swimming on video, and then superimposing the images can be an effective way to improve... Certainly worth the investment... video.google.com/videoplay

So how fast should I be doing my SDK for it to be an effective race strategy? Not more than 2 seconds slower than I could swim it? Currently I SDK 25m about 4-5 seconds slower than I can actually fly it. I am guessing this is too large of a difference and the reason for my first 50 being slower than my second. How close are your SDK times to your actual swim times? Syd Over a 25? For me, in backstroke there is almost no difference in time, in fly maybe a small difference (0.5 sec). The difference gets bigger in a hurry because legs tire more quickly. In a 50 there is maybe 1 sec diff in back that increases to about 4 seconds for the 100. Paul gave you good advice. I've always been a good kicker with big lungs: at 6, I could do a 25 no-breather underwater (75s by high school) and by 10 I was a faster kicker than most high school swimmers on my team. I'm not saying this to brag, quite the opposite: it is not something I had to work for, and at this poitn training my SDK is just a strategy that plays to my strengths. And even so, I hesitate to use it in fly. I'm going to try it this year, at least in the shorter races -- I'm pathetic enough to grasp at any straws to have even an outside chance at getting Paul's 100 fly record before I age up! -- but I'm not convinced it will be worthwhile because I worry that any gains I do make in the first 50 will be offset by rather painful dying in the second. Probably the biggest fallacy about SDK is that it "saves" your arms. It doesn't -- it is all connected, and if your legs die they take your whole stroke with them, believe me. You are smarter than most in attempting to actually compare (in practice) the two strategies. "Kick-intensive" sets -- which do not have to be with a board -- are a good idea whether or not you use a lot of SDK in a race. Who knows, you might surprise yourself down the line, but until then it is still good training and conditioning that will help your entire race, not just your walls. In any event, it is good to train in different ways, it keeps things more interesting. The key is to apply the same intensity, and to care about your progress as much, as you do in your "regular" swim sets. That's just my :2cents:, Chris

Syd, Evil (John) Smith has posted many, many times that swimming is such a fad driven sport that it masks the fact that there really has not been all that much advancement in times being swum vs. 20 years ago. Most recently this came up when Ian Crocker swam unrested in a meet and went 19+, 42+ & 4:19...very imporessive swims and showing and incredible "reach" in bridging the sprint/middle distance gap...thing is Rowdy did the almost exact same times over 20 years ago. I bring this up because even though I'm a major proponent of heavy kick training I see a LOT of swimmers right now fixated on SDK...even ones who are finding like you that they may ultimately be slower using it. The thing is not everyone can or should be using an SDK for competition....in my opinion it takes years of practice to fully integrate it successfully into the complete stroke and I would guess that easilly 50-75% of swimmers will never achieve that integration... The ones that can and do are those that have an uncanny "feel" for overall streamline body position....something I'm still not convinced can be "taught". Not to worry however as MANY of the top USS/Collegiate/Masters swimmers out there are doing just fine without it...in fact just recently I swam the SCM meet at Long Beach and had some decent swims in my 100/200 free where I didn't use it at all...but I still practice it every workout. Final thought....don't get caught up in what others are doing so much and so fixated on a certain number of kicks to use, be "fluid" in every workout and adjust as you see how your body is working/feeling...you may find that things will happen more naturally and hopefully with better results. Good post. But I see hardly anyone fixated on SDK. I think SDKs have a lot of notoriety, but I don't see that many masters swimmers using them all that much. I think you should try the SDKs in fly, Chris. Since it works for you in backstroke, you'd think it would work reasonably well for fly. My last two 100 flys, I SDK'd a lot, 15 meters on the start. My legs didn't die in the end. My arms did.

A simple solution to see whether using SDK's is an advantage or disadvantage for anyone (in a shorter race) is to have yourself timed to 15 meters going off the blocks with full rest numerous times on numerous different days. Make sure the timer is being consistent. Compare times to the 15 meter mark with no kicks, 2 kicks, 4 kicks, etc., etc. 40-50 efforts over a two week period should give you a pretty good idea of what your ideal SDK amount would be. You can also do this off turns starting the watch on the feet. For me the "sweet spot" is 4 kicks on free and 5 on fly. For some reason the extra one on fly helps me avoid the dreaded arms under water breakout.

Syd, Evil (John) Smith has posted many, many times that swimming is such a fad driven sport that it masks the fact that there really has not been all that much advancement in times being swum vs. 20 years ago. Most recently this came up when Ian Crocker swam unrested in a meet and went 19+, 42+ & 4:19...very imporessive swims and showing and incredible "reach" in bridging the sprint/middle distance gap...thing is Rowdy did the almost exact same times over 20 years ago. I bring this up because even though I'm a major proponent of heavy kick training I see a LOT of swimmers right now fixated on SDK...even ones who are finding like you that they may ultimately be slower using it. The thing is not everyone can or should be using an SDK for competition....in my opinion it takes years of practice to fully integrate it successfully into the complete stroke and I would guess that easilly 50-75% of swimmers will never achieve that integration... The ones that can and do are those that have an uncanny "feel" for overall streamline body position....something I'm still not convinced can be "taught". Not to worry however as MANY of the top USS/Collegiate/Masters swimmers out there are doing just fine without it...in fact just recently I swam the SCM meet at Long Beach and had some decent swims in my 100/200 free where I didn't use it at all...but I still practice it every workout. Final thought....don't get caught up in what others are doing so much and so fixated on a certain number of kicks to use, be "fluid" in every workout and adjust as you see how your body is working/feeling...you may find that things will happen more naturally and hopefully with better results.

Ok, so here is a related question. Just at what point does your SDK start slowing you down in a race? What is the optimal number of kicks and how does one go about measuring that number? I have been practicing my SDK's a lot lately and I have made some quite decent improvements. Yesterday, I thought I would put it to the test in a race situation. I did two sprint 50's fly. On the first I did 5 or 6 SDK's from the pushoff and about the same at the turn. I rested for about 2 mins and the second time I still did 5 or 6 off the pushoff but only two at the turn. I came in a second and a half faster! So I guess this means I shouldn't be adopting SDK as a race strategy just yet. So how fast should I be doing my SDK for it to be an effective race strategy? Not more than 2 seconds slower than I could swim it? Currently I SDK 25m about 4-5 seconds slower than I can actually fly it. I am guessing this is too large of a difference and the reason for my first 50 being slower than my second. How close are your SDK times to your actual swim times? Syd

Swim enough, think enough and it all falls into place. My best training session came while not in the water. It was reading about splitting times by 25s in a hundred - that was my biggest break through from a slower 100 to a faster 100. Figure out how fast your first 25 has to be, then how fast your 2nd 25 to the 50. Then how fast your next 25 to the 75, then how fast to the 100.

How about racing for the tab? :weightlifter: Now that's what I call a good idea. Since I'm a huge fan of cheap American beer, losing to me wouldn't sting at all.