Dara Torres-Amazing

I think that the people here have all looked at Dara's achievements and her reported workout regime, etc. and formed reasonable opinions. They are, however opposing opinions. I will not try to convince you or others, but my opinion is that Dara is and always has been clean. This opinion has been formed based on the following facts, plus some others that I'm probably forgetting as I type. It isn't like she sat around watching TV and smoking cigarettes in her "off" years from swimming. She has remained incredibly fit throughout the years with her tai bo stint and everything else. When she came back, she learned a new more efficient freestyle stroke and has taken up a new workout regime that is different than anyone else's. Her stroke efficiency was significantly better than anyone else in the pool at nationals last year. THAT is the real difference with Dara, and drugs don't give you that. I noticed the same thing with Kara Lynn Joyce's stroke at the Mizzou meet last week, so maybe her competition is starting to pick up on this. She is also concentrating on very short races, which is more plausible for her limited swimming workouts. Seeing her on the deck at Mizzou, her musculature was not out of proportion vs. any of the other women in the faster heats. I just don't see anything that points decisively to drug use.Amen. Thank you for having a different perspective about the situation than I do (mine changes back and forth) but admitting that my questions aren't irrational, immoral or evil. That's all I was after :applaud:

Why is there any rancor? None of us know the truth here. It seems like we have the following camps (I'm sure I am oversimplifying): -- Those who presume DT clean and haven't been convinced otherwise. -- Those who think that such performances are near-impossible for a 40-year-old without PEDs -- Those who view almost all extraordinary athletic performances with suspicion because of the prevalence of PEDs in modern athletics. (Since I am in the first camp, I apologize if my wording of the other camps angers anyone. It is unintentional because I respect those of you who hold those opinions.) There is nothing immoral about falling into any one of these camps. I think the Amy the Cal grad said it: it is a matter of your personality (I would say "worldview" but then again I'm a pompous windpage academic-type.) I will make the observation that it is impossible to prove a negative, so that those who fall into the last two camps will almost certainly remain there. I find that a little sad, but I think it is more a statement on the current situation in professional athletics than anything else.

Is it completely predictable that an "Amy the Cal grad" would tend toward questioning and skepticism???;) And I wasn't even at Berkeley in the sixties!

Why is there any rancor? I have no idea. But those in camps 2 or 3 or Goodsmith's 4 have been accused of defamation and needing a sharp whack with the ruler from mommy for speaking out of turn or saying "bad" things. No need for moral reprobation. Nothing "sad" about being in camps 2 or 3 or 4 either. I'm perfectly comfortable there.

You missed a group.... .... -- Those who view almost all extraordinary athletic performances with suspicion because of the prevalence of PEDs in modern athletics. -- and Those who view some extraordinary athletic performances with suspicion given empirical and historical evidence as compared to peers as potentially indicative of using PEDs. Okay. I was hoping that "...the prevalence of PEDs..." covered the same ground.:doh: I think I should also include camps for hippy ex-Call grads, nerdy UNC grads, and too-tall UT grads. You and Ande would be in the last one, I do believe...

It's not sad that you are in that camp, rather, it's sad that sports in general are in such a state of affairs as to lead you into that camp in the first place. I agree (and said as much, I think) but I also think it is sad for the "campers" because it lessens their enjoyment of the events through no fault of their own.

I agree (and said as much, I think) but I also think it is sad for the "campers" because it lessens their enjoyment of the events through no fault of their own. I guess I'm existential enough not to be horrifically bothered with lack of complete certainty. I plan on enjoying the Trials and Olympics. I will admit that I didn't watch nearly as much of the Tour de France this year though.

You also missed my point of view. Let everyone use HGH and steroids then we will have an even playing field. Trust me, no one has missed this point.

You see, Paul, adding that "cool-aid" remark in there implies that anyone that disagrees with your opinion here is a non-thinking lunatic who blindly follows what others say about Dara. It could just as easily be characterized that your contrary opinion is the "cool-aid" drinking opinion, blindly following the naysayers about Dara without looking at what she has really done. I don't think that either side here is that extreme. I think that the people here have all looked at Dara's achievements and her reported workout regime, etc. and formed reasonable opinions. They are, however opposing opinions. I will not try to convince you or others, but my opinion is that Dara is and always has been clean. This opinion has been formed based on the following facts, plus some others that I'm probably forgetting as I type. It isn't like she sat around watching TV and smoking cigarettes in her "off" years from swimming. She has remained incredibly fit throughout the years with her tai bo stint and everything else. When she came back, she learned a new more efficient freestyle stroke and has taken up a new workout regime that is different than anyone else's. Her stroke efficiency was significantly better than anyone else in the pool at nationals last year. THAT is the real difference with Dara, and drugs don't give you that. I noticed the same thing with Kara Lynn Joyce's stroke at the Mizzou meet last week, so maybe her competition is starting to pick up on this. She is also concentrating on very short races, which is more plausible for her limited swimming workouts. Seeing her on the deck at Mizzou, her musculature was not out of proportion vs. any of the other women in the faster heats. I just don't see anything that points decisively to drug use. Jim I was VERY careful and specific in what I posted...I did not use the cool aid analogy in reference to believing what I or anyone else believes but rather to those who refuse to question things in life that in general should be questioned...that includes drug use in sports, politics, religion, etc. etc.....everything. People who blindly accept things at face value AND then criticize/threaten or otherwise tell those who don't are in my opinion cool aid drinkers....In this conversation there have been some great posts bringing up why/why not regarding whether there is something going on here...than there are those attack. You have an opinion, you expressed it and thats great. I accept that she has passed testing and is clean until proven otherwise and think that what she has achieved is groundbreaking in all sports...I still have some nagging doubts based on a number of things...most of which have been brought up on this forum but for now we go forward. But in your case I KNOW you drink cool aid so back off!! :banana:

Let's just be very clear on one thing: casting suspicion is not as innocuous as all the doubters would have us believe. For the ill-informed and the over zealous even a hint of suspicion is proof of guilt. The fact that suspicion has been raised can sully an otherwise outstanding carreer. Doubt has a habit of overshadowing excellent achievements. This can be very harmful and damaging. Therefore, we should be very careful about what we say. And I don't mean trying to avoid law suits either. I don't think anyone has made libellous or slanderous remarks here. I just mean we should choose our language carefully and responsibly. Even the stating of opinions can have consequences. Opinions are not harmless. :soapbox: Syd I for one have no intention of giving up my opinions. This sounds very Big Brother to me. And it's inaccurate. Doubt has already been raised. Most think she's clean and her career is in hyperdrive and is in no way "sullied." What happened to freedom of speech and the value of a good debate? Very un-Socratic of you.