Dara Torres-Amazing

HGH If a small person that used HGH to get themselves to be within the average size zone be considered a druggie in your opinion. I happen to know a family that was what we called little people that had the injections.

So how does that work? I always assumed steroids didn't really do much good unless you were working out while using. I don't know the science of it Kirk, but somehow it helps burn fat. I remember a friend on 'roids for asthma who was extremely defined, which I am told was a side effect.

Chris Stevenson, Comparing Susan with Dara is not that good of a comparison. Note, Susan made her Olympic teams in individual events not just relays. Susan is very naturally strong and talented, but she has not transformed her body as dramatically as Dara. Susan is respectably close to her career best times in the 100 ***, but is not going to top 8 let alone win ..... let alone set an Amercian Record in the event. Susan appears to be the first real masters swimmer (with a masters swimmers lifestyle and attitude) to be able to qualify and race at the trials. Susan is doing something phenomenal. Frankly, I am more interested in Susan's performance at the trials than's Dara's performance. I find Susan's swims stunning given her routine and daily demands....... despite the fact that she DQ'd my son at the last meet in Loveland, CO !!!! Dara's phyique and accomplishments look totally different to me. I would not compare the two as one supporting the other. John Smith

Do you have any proof other than a couple of pictures that prove Dara is other than a beautiful well conditioned athlete. Is she doing anything illegal? I guess the whole discussion is not valid.

I am in favor of the do what you want theory. Use anything you want to get faster. I am now at an age when it does not matter to me. I knew others took drugs when I was racing. It made me mad. But I did my best basically clean.

Dara has been questioned about it, and her response was to accept random testing. I'm not sure what else you want from her. Perhaps we need to start questioning some USMS swimmers who are dominating their age groups and breaking their own records routinely.

I am in favor of the do what you want theory. Use anything you want to get faster. and better. But do we get faster and better? I am now at an age when it does not matter to me. I knew others took drugs when I was racing. It made me mad. But I did my best, basically clean I used massive does of caffein at times did it work???.

Pettite did not see anything. His stuff is hearsay he thinks he heard something and Clemens said he misunderstood.. "He thinks he heard something" makes it sound like high school gossip, and it isn't. What he heard is Clemens telling him that he used HGH, and he testified about it. I think it much more likely that Clemens is lying than that Pettitte misunderstood. If there had been any doubt in Pettitte's mind about the conversation he would not have testified because he had nothing to gain and I imagine he would have been reluctant to hurt Clemens. Using HGH is not the same as using steroids, but Pettitte's story supports McNamee's version of events and not Clemens'. Not enough to convict him a court of law perhaps, but enough for me to form my opinion: Clemens is a very talented and accomplished athlete, a hard worker, and a juicer. The difference between this and Torres' situation is that there is no evidence whatsoever against DT other than the performances themselves and a few pictures, all of which I think is pretty weak. So for me DT gets the benefit of the doubt, just as any other athlete would.

How many factors are affected by doping? Is it more than strength? If it is primarily a question of strength then it seems to me to come down to a question of whether it is plausible that she could make the strength gains she has without doping. My understanding is that it is still possible to make large strength gains in one's late thirties, esp. if one hasn't concentrated on strength training when younger. From what I've read using steroids makes it possible to train harder with less recovery time. This would certainly be something especially beneficial to an older athlete. It seems to me that just recently there was an article discussed here that purported to show that the declines in parameters other than maximum heart rate/V02-max were negligible well past the age of 40, implying that reduced training was the primary reason for performance declines in aging athletes. How large is the sample size for athletes even attempting to train and perform at this level at age 40? Could she not just be well out on the bell curve? These are all good points, IMO.

Nowadays, athletic performances are viewed with suspicion because of the pervasiveness of performance enhancing drugs in sport. Yes, and I've said elsewhere in the thread: I trust her results as much as any other athletes. Which is not the same as saying that I have no doubts whatsoever. If you distrust ALL elite athletes, then there is no point in debating the issue or watching the events. Second, her performances need to be viewed in the proper context--personal bests (and an American record at that) in a 40 year old woman. It is well known that maximum heart rate declines with age. VO2max declines by 10% per decade. Pulmonary function declines. Cardiac output declines as a function of heart rate and stroke volume. Studies have not shown that training alters this. This is why some of us have a problem accepting these results as being clean. And I think all of those things have little impact on a 50 free, that's why I think she chose the best possible event. If we were talking about a record in the 200 fly or the 1500 free, I might have a different reaction. Personal bests in a 40-year-old? Not unheard of at all, ask around. This time it happens to be an American Record. Do you believe she was doping at Masters Worlds, just after giving birth? From that point, she dropped about 2 seconds off her 50 free in a year of intense training to set an American Record. I don't think that stretches credibility at all. In some ways, her Worlds performance was the more jaw-dropping.