IM Transition turn btween back and ***

Jeff, Uh-oh, you make it sound gymnastically challenging!! donna

I agree with knelson. He just does it so quick, it looks like he crosses over. He just drops the shoulder on the side he turns towards. The new turn requires some shoulder flexibility. It looks like the arm crosses over because during the last stroke into the wall you actually need to roll the other way as you touch the wall. With a normal backstroke shoulder rotation, the shoulder doing the catch would drop as you rotate to take the stroke. Here, you stay on the side of the stroke you just finished, while reaching toward the wall. This allows you to start the forward turn while still appearing to be on the back to finish the back leg of the IM. As long as the reaching shoulder doesn't go past verticle, you have a legal finish for the back. I've worked with kids on the turn, and when they get it, it's really good. It's also really bad when they don't. Super slow, and lots of water up the nose if you're not careful. Personally, I like the "sideways" turn. Do the long touch with the high shoulder, then stay on the side underwater and push off turning toward the ***. It just feels less akward to me. Dana

I have found the easiest way to learn it is to turn using the same hand evertime until you get used to it.....then try switching hands. I use the same hand everytime in a race though....get to know your stroke count and try using the same hand everytime. Practice, practice, practice!!!!

I always did the pure back flip turn in my im's (except the 400im in season where you need all the air you can get). So i just come in touch on my back, hand low on the wall, then bring my knees and feet up and over my head, effectively doing the back somersault. with my feet planted i push off on my stomach for *** (and get to do the new sweet dolphin pulldown) this backflip or the crossover (which i could never master) is less air though, but is much faster I believe. In the end it all comes down to preference, and what you can do (both physically and mentally)

I haven't really worked on this yet, but I'm sure it would be valuable for the 100 IM. (I need air on my 200s.) I have always done an open turn at meets. I guess I could do the spin turn pretty easily. I've done that in practice. My biggest problem is not the flexibility, but for some odd reason, I really prefer hitting the wall with my left hand. I feel really awkward spinning when I hit the wall with my right hand. I don't even like flipping to my right side on a regular backstroke turn. I'd rather flip to the left before I turn. Does anyone else have this issue? It seems odd to me to swim a 100 IM and only use a spin or flip if I hit with my left hand ... Then the whole length of backstroke I'd be worried about which hand I'd be flipping with. I guess I should count strokes, but I'm not that consistent. Depends how the SDKs and all go. Maybe I'll put rollover turn on my to do list instead of breaststroke.

Jeff, Uh-oh, you make it sound gymnastically challenging!! donna Well, it requires strong muscles to contort the body in that fashion. Your shoulders need to be strong so the hand that touches can begin the flip. You need strong abs to execute the flip. You need good lungs to hold your breath for six to seven seconds. I will say it took me three months to get the turn right. But I come from the era before the current backstroke turn. The old turn that we did is what 90 percent of the back to *** turn is about, so I just needed to work on breath control. It is crucial for the 100 IM, but I would also say it's necessary for the 200. Though it's twice as long, it is still considered a sprint (four 50s).

With the time I need to turn around it matters not what hand I use. I'm sure I hear little horns going "Whoooooooooop, whooooooooooop!" eminating from inside me someplace. ;)

I always did the pure back flip turn in my im's (except the 400im in season where you need all the air you can get). So i just come in touch on my back, hand low on the wall, then bring my knees and feet up and over my head, effectively doing the back somersault. with my feet planted i push off on my stomach for *** (and get to do the new sweet dolphin pulldown) this backflip or the crossover (which i could never master) is less air though, but is much faster I believe. In the end it all comes down to preference, and what you can do (both physically and mentally) This is a lot easier. The other way requires really strong abs.

I wish you all luck in learning the rollover turn. It is actually easier than you think, if you break it down. A little history. The rollover turn originally was used for backstroke and was developed by Ray Bussard at the University of Tennessee back in the 70's. It's sole purpose was to beat John Naber, who was very tall and had a slow open turn. Bussard also developed the stand up backstroke start for the sole purpose of beating Naber. Eric Schwotzer, I believe was the only person to beat Naber in the 100 backstroke in a dual meet. The only way to beat Naber was to start and turn faster than him, which Bussard figured out how to do. The turn was one reason Lee Engstrand set the American record in the 200IM back in the day. The turn was so difficult to judge, that the committee got rid of it and allowed the backstroke turn to completely turn to the *** before initiating the turn. Most of the IM records that were set with the old turn were broken almost immediately, when the back turn and back to *** turn was allowed to completely roll over. I feel for Mook Rodenbaugh, who I saw go 1:48 in the 200 IM at the 1982 Ohio High School State Meet, without the roll over turn, in backstroke and transition. As I remember, it was broken the very first year the roll over turn was allowed. The rollover turn is basically the same turn that you use for the backstroke turn now, except that you are touching the wall with your top arm as you are rolling over towards your ***. The rules state that you cannot past vertical towards the *** before you touch the wall. But you can go TO vertical. So, as you are rolling over, simply touch the wall halfway through your roll, continue your roll and press off on your side. The breaststroke rules state that you do not have to be horizontal as you leave the wall, only before you initiate the first pull. Start slow. Practice touching the wall with your top arm as you are rotating towards your ***. Over and over again. Just touching the wall with your top arm. Stop. Do over. Just practice touching the wall with your top arm. Next, practice rolling over after you touch the wall and do a regular flipturn. The way it works, is if you are entering the wall with your top arm being the right arm, as you flip you should be exiting the wall on your left side. Vicey versy if you are initiating the turn with your left arm. By breaking it down and learning each step slowly, you can learn this turn in one practice. I have 10+unders that do it. Even if you do it slow at first, by using it day after day, it will begin to get really fast. Just like everythingelse. The tough part is getting yourself to slow down and learn it right and then use it even if it might be slow. Eventually it will become fast. Good luck.

Both, but you have to stay on your back until you touch For me: the flip over is much faster Ande This question has come up offline so I thought I'd post the question to find out the rule about this transitional turn between the IM's back and *** since I no longer do IMs. Years ago, a flip turn between back and *** was allowed; it was not the new "freestyle" back turn, a swimmer could touch the wall in backstroke, and then flip over to enter the breastroke. Now I believe more swimmers are backstroking into the wall and open turning into the breaststroke portion of the IM. For all of you Im'ers out there, what is now legal: both turns or does a swimmer have to do an "open turn"? Donna