other than turns, what makes someone better at one or the other?
Former Member
I guess that a tall person would be better in a lcm pool than in a scy, but may be that would also has to do with the type of pool you are used to swim in as your endurance is made according it.:agree: ??
other than turns, what makes someone better at one or the other?
Great question. I've yet to figure it out.
My personal experience is that I feel I have to be in much, much better shape to handle LCM. I just feel that there's nowhere to hide, no walls to rest on. I feel a 100 IM or a 100 Fly SCY is much easier to swim than a 100 IM or Fly LCM. That goes double for 200s. I've yet to even try the 200 Fly LCM as an adult as my SCY swim was so poor.
I feel your stroke technique has to be better in LCM where in SCY you can get away with an okay stroke and awesome turns.
I have the opportunity to swim with Eric Shanteau's mom at our local pool. She always says that Eric is better in long course as he's a better *swimmer* as opposed to some of his world class opponents who can beat him in SCY due to their better "turning" ability.
:2cents:
I agree with the previous comments and additionally in the scy, there is more turns. During each turn you hold your breath, which might cause more fatique.
On the other hand, more turns means less strokes (push-off from the wall). This means better leg-conditioning is essential.
As a last point, more turns means holding a constant stroke rate is harder.
I can only report on what I see and hear from my age group daughter who swims both. She tells me that LCM is more relaxing, that she has time to focus on her stroke, rather than SCY where the turns and quick reflexes win out. She hates Short Course, loves Long Course, and really loves Open Water. I think it's mind set and personality myself.
I try to swim both each week and find lcm to be much harder than scy. For me, the difference is definitely the turns.
wasn't there a recent thread (tried to find it) that attached an article form the usas website comparing the ratios of swimming to turning for scy and lcm.
i think the question posed was something like "what can one do while training in scy to prepare for lcm competition?"
i wish we had an indoor 50 in my county!
wasn't there a recent thread (tried to find it) that attached an article form the usas website comparing the ratios of swimming to turning for scy and lcm.
i think the question posed was something like "what can one do while training in scy to prepare for lcm competition?"
i wish we had an indoor 50 in my county!
I think I read that article too. is this it? Very interesting reading.
www.usaswimming.org/.../ViewMiscArticle.aspx
My comment was that I would guess that Ryan would beat Michael in a short course yard 200 IM. If he broke his record by nearly a full second within a month, then I would say he would stand a pretty good chance. I did not make a comment about the 400 IM which requires more "above the water" swimming than the 200 since staying under water for long periods of time creates oxygen deprivation which would severely hinder your performance at the end of a long race.
The point is Ryan can make up for a lack of height and perhaps "above the water" swimming ability when compared with Michael Phelps because of his tremendous under water ability. This can be achieved because of the ratio of under water to above the water is inverted when comparing LCM to SCY.
I keep seeing that people say they feel that short course causes less fatigue than long course because of the rest on the turns. I think that it all depends on how you approach your turns and your race. If you don't create that much oxygen deprivation on the turns, resurface quickly, and don't maximize your under water kicking then you probably will be less fatigued. Certainly your arms will have more rest. My feeling, however, is that if you maximize your under water you do create oxygen deprivation that will cause your muscles to fail to respond. So either way, you need to strive to find the correct balance between under water and straight swimming and my guess is that everybody optimizes using different approaches for each individual.
I would agree that it would be a guess and speculation about Ryan beating Michael in a 200 Yard IM. Unless they race in this format, which I don't believe has happened in the last 5 years, its hard to analyze who would be having what advantage in both underwater swimming and surface swimming. Race conditions sometimes dictate how a person swims in the races. When Phelps did that 1:41.30 in Austin last year, it was the last event of the meet after he set 2 American Records. He basically had no one pushing him in this event and the 200 Fly and 400 IM. So you never know what would happen in racing conditions and all we can do is speculate and guess.
In watching Michael Phelps swim both in a practice and in a meet I believe one of his strengths in his swimming compared to others is his turns and underwater breakouts before swimming to the surface. He is an absolute expert in Fly and IM events when I have seen him. And it doesn't matter if its a 200 IM or 400 IM. I will give you an example of this and I think most people here will remember the race I am talking about because I believe Michael Phelps had one of the best turns and breakouts that I have ever seen a swimmer do.
The race was the 400 IM at the 2002 Nationals in Fort Lauderdale. He was racing Eric Vendt, who was ahead of him going into the 350 turn and at that wall Micheal did a turn and his dolphin kick and breakout was tremendous. He was a body length behind going in and a body length ahead coming out of the breakout. He ended up out touching Vendt at the wall for the win for his first World Record in the 400 IM breaking the mark by Tom Dolan. In fact Eric Vendt broke the World Record also.
The point I am making in this is that everyone needs to find a correct balance between there underwater swimming and the straight surface swimming based on there ability and technique. Michael proved in this one race that it can be done in a 400 just as well as a 200. Now I know this was Long Course as opposed to Short Course but some swimmers can do this and not have oxgen deprivation and not be more fatigued. When they maximize there underwater swimming, there muscles don't fail to respond and they resurface swimming pretty fast to the finish. Also another race that comes to mind is the 200 Fly at last years Pan Pacific Championships in Canada. Micheal was behind those 2 Japanese swimmers and came up a body length ahead after the 150 turn.
They're better at starts and turns than swimming.
This is insulting. A substantial part of swimming is starts and turns. Unless meets are going to be held in an endless pool from this point on, you cannot ignore the importance of all aspects of a swimming race. If you can't start and have sorry turns, you probably won't be a great swimmer. The first thing I did to shave serious time off my events was dramatically improve my turns.
Brad:
Plus I have to disagree with your assessement that Ryan is a better in Short Course IM than Michael... However, Ryan did break the month old Phelps's 200 IM record of 1:41.30 with a time of 1:40.55.
My comment was that I would guess that Ryan would beat Michael in a short course yard 200 IM. If he broke his record by nearly a full second within a month, then I would say he would stand a pretty good chance. I did not make a comment about the 400 IM which requires more "above the water" swimming than the 200 since staying under water for long periods of time creates oxygen deprivation which would severely hinder your performance at the end of a long race.
The point is Ryan can make up for a lack of height and perhaps "above the water" swimming ability when compared with Michael Phelps because of his tremendous under water ability. This can be achieved because of the ratio of under water to above the water is inverted when comparing LCM to SCY.
I keep seeing that people say they feel that short course causes less fatigue than long course because of the rest on the turns. I think that it all depends on how you approach your turns and your race. If you don't create that much oxygen deprivation on the turns, resurface quickly, and don't maximize your under water kicking then you probably will be less fatigued. Certainly your arms will have more rest. My feeling, however, is that if you maximize your under water you do create oxygen deprivation that will cause your muscles to fail to respond. So either way, you need to strive to find the correct balance between under water and straight swimming and my guess is that everybody optimizes using different approaches for each individual.
