"What do YOU need to do to have a major swimming breakthrough?"

Allen, can you say a bit more about this? If there is some sort of compromise or intermediate between the two approaches, that would be helpful for me. How wide you bring your hands is a function of many things,including strengh and how fast your kick recovery is.The important thing regardless is to quickly get into a catch position that has your forearms as propulsive surfaces.I used to have a very wide pull,but after getting a velocity analysis found I was losing momentum early in the catch and was faster getting deeper earlier.Then I went to a clinic with Megan Jendrick and saw she swam that way.Play with it for yourself and let the stopwatch judge.

EVF is early vertical forearm which means hands go down and elbows stay high. Catch quick and maximize the resistance of your hands and forearms applying propulsive power to the pool. EVF works great for for freestyle, butterfly, and breastroke pull downs. I'm not so sure about EVF for breastroke stroke. The keys for breastroke are: + perfect your technique and timing, increase propulsivness and decrease resistance. + Apply power quickly, and + RIDE THE GLIDE, spend more time streamlined Do what Kitajima does . Sorry,I thought you were endorcing leading with the elbows as ELaine was doing in her video.EVF could be more EDiagonalF for these swimmers. The important point is to have the forearm as a propulsive surface as well as the hand.

ultimately, my shoulders will decide which way to go on this. If your shoulders aren't going to allow you to do a really powerful pull then I would suggest working mostly on your kick and using a sculling type pull that will create the least amount of drag.

How wide you bring your hands is a function of many things,including strengh and how fast your kick recovery is.The important thing regardless is to quickly get into a catch position that has your forearms as propulsive surfaces.I used to have a very wide pull,but after getting a velocity analysis found I was losing momentum early in the catch and was faster getting deeper earlier.Then I went to a clinic with Megan Jendrick and saw she swam that way.Play with it for yourself and let the stopwatch judge. So, I'm still struggling to understand, because I know when I get in the pool I won't know what to do. What I am hearing is that one of the following might be OK, and I should play around to see which is better: 1. butterfly style pull, with elbows up and forearms down 2. more sculling style pull, with elbows up and forearms up, sweeping wide and what I shouldn't do is: 3. have my forearms higher than my elbow Is that right? And is there some sort of in-between for 1 and 2, or (assuming I have them right) should I go for one or the other? Thanks for your help, Allen, very much appreciated.

If your shoulders aren't going to allow you to do a really powerful pull then I would suggest working mostly on your kick and using a sculling type pull that will create the least amount of drag. Thanks Knelson, Ande, and Allen! :applaud: This discussion has been great for me; I've learned a lot! I have a lot of work to do to figure this out for myself! :agree:

finally watched your video I suggest you + do a wider outsweep + GLIDE FURTHER off your dive and push offs, wait a little longer before you pull out + glide further after each kick, kick with more force + wear a tech suit swim BR like this Brendan Hansen YouTube - Hansen's stroke kitajima YouTube - Breaststroke - Kitajima gliding Here is a video from Saturday's 200 breaststroke. (Lane 2 in royal blue cap) I was 3 seconds off my PB; you can see how I pooped out at the end. My stroke count went up and my splits got worse. :blush: : YouTube - 200yd BR 2-5-11.MOV For other videos ( :afraid: ), they are posted at: www.youtube.com/EKrugman1 Several of those are short videos of my strokes, so my part-time coach and view and critique them. Others are from my meets. Today, I did your speed workout (the sample you gave me) at the Steve Lundquist Aquatic Center (Home of 2011 SwimFest! :banana: ). At the end, during my warm down, I tried to see how few strokes I could get on a length. 7 was the lowest I could go and at that stroke rate, my time was :50 for 50yds.:bitching: My 38.90 NQT was more like 17 strokes on the second 25yds! :afraid: So, I'm trying to work on dropping my stroke count AND my time, so I can be efficient AND fast in my races! Thanks, Andy! :bow:

Allen, We disagree, many of the best breastrokers in the world keep their hands and forearms just below the surface, they outsweep, insweep then thrust. Watch underwater breastroke footage of the best on youtube They aren't doing a partial butterfly pull with a quick insweep & thrust. The problem with that method is the swimmers hands and forearms get buried too deep which creates extra resistance as they transition from insweep to thrust. It's true, Soni doesn't have much of an insweep. She outsweeps, does a slight insweep, then thrusts with her hands and elbows wide. She has an incredible kick. I've photographed her head on racing at a grand prix in Austin, the shots are in one of my FB albums. Kitajima thrusts with this hands touching. Watch underwater footage of Brendan Hansen, Eric Shanteau, & Cameron van der Burgh. My suggestion is to do what the best do. Brendan Hansen YouTube - Hansen's stroke kitajima YouTube - Breaststroke - Kitajima gliding it doesn't look like half a butterfly pull with a quick insweep YouTube - Ian Crocker's fly I totally disagree.The new mantra for BR pull is that it is just like fly until you get back to shoulder level and then insweep. Some of the women, especially Soni don't even really have an insweep. I say get into EVF, pull back hard to about your shoulder, then insweep and recover quickly.

On my turns, I've worked on deeper turns in practice, but they fall apart in a race when I'm tired and desperate to come up for air! I need to keep working on that- thanks! Not that I'm any kind of model of great breaststroke, but prioritizing long pull outs are the one thing I do right. The longer you can stay under, the fewer strokes you will have to take (so, less energy expended), and the more air you will have overall. It is definitely worth it. And if you want to bring your stroke count down, it's a good way to do it. Push off hard, glide, pull down hard, kick hard, glide a wee bit more, and come up (and don't lift your head too soon! that's the hardest part for me).

I agree with all of you, regarding a stronger, longer, deeper pullout. I have the best intentions, but as the 200 breaststroke wears on (and I wear out!), I panic for air. So, my continuous goal is to keep training the 200 breaststroke, get stronger, and try to build up my strength and lungs. And, I am now doing speed workouts at the Steve Lundquist Aquatic Center, so I can get better quality training in. As for the EVF debate, ultimately, my shoulders will decide which way to go on this. I've been trying out different techniques to see what works best. One idea my part-time coach had was to go with a deeper pull, so I would use more biceps and pecs., rather than stressing my shoulders. It did feel better, but I'm afraid it will slow me down too much. I'm probably best off with a narrow outsweep and a shallower pull, even if it does result in a higher stroke count; at least on the 50 and 100. :worms:

Allen, We disagree, many of the best breastrokers in the world keep their hands and forearms just below the surface, they outsweep, insweep then thrust. Watch underwater breastroke footage of the best on youtube They aren't doing a partial butterfly pull with a quick insweep & thrust. The problem with that method is the swimmers hands and forearms get buried too deep which creates extra eresistance as they transition from insweep to thrust. It's true, Soni doesn't have much of an insweep. She outsweeps, does a slight insweep, then thrusts with her hands and elbows wide. She has an incredible kick. I've photographed her head on racing at a grand prix in Austin, the shots are in one of my FB albums. Kitajima thrusts with this hands touching. Watch underwater footage of Brendan Hansen, Eric Shanteau, & Cameron van der Burgh. My suggestion is to do what the best do. Sorry,I thought you were endorcing leading with the elbows as ELaine was doing in her video.EVF could be more EDiagonalF for these swimmers.The important point is to have the forearm as a propulsive surface as well as the hand.