Question on arm position in freestyle:

We never overdo the finish. The only time to overdo a finish is if you are trying to practice a finish so you can get back on track. The hand rolls out at the finish. You will never here me tell anyone to throw their hand forward to develop momentum. If you throw the hand it is like punching the water and the water will punch you back with equal force, but as I believe others may not agree.

Solar Energy: Yes, I meant lat pulldowns at the gym. I've been wary of doing them because of the overhead motion involved. I too was taught to push past my hips in my youth. I've just been warned that continuing such an approach could hurt my shoulders. So I've been trying to correct that flaw. I also need to start counting my distance per stroke, especially when I'm swimming alone. I have no clue what mine is. That explosive feeling .... Yes, aging is interesting. I still have it, but man am I sore after I sprint. (Last Sunday, one 100, 3 50s and 4 25s at a meet.) I find it odd to be a sprinter at 45. When I was younger, I mostly did fly,/back and IMs of all distances. When I started lifting weights more in college, all of a sudden I could sprint too. My son has a theory that I still have speed now because I took 24 years off swimming. He thinks that if I had swum masters, I would have lost speed over the years. This sounds odd to me. Better get back to some drylands...

Lindsay: I think the finish bothers me because I am not doing what George says: I am not keeping my hand below my shoulder. I appear to be finishing so far that on the recovery my elbow is slightly over my back on the recovery. That kind of overrotation is bad for the shoulder. I'm not sure about just finishing the stroke properly. That would be a triceps extension. I also think your different strokes for different folks is absolutely right. I've seen different styles work for different people. I do think the issue of which stroke hurts your shoulders the most has something to do with the location of the injury/problem. Free is the worst for me. I think it's worse than fly.

No sculling for me!!! I agree. No sculling drills for me. I think sculling is a big myth of the swimming world. Everyone says it helps your "feel" for the water and that it's "so good" for you. I don't get it. I don't "feel" it. It just annoys me to do it. I'd rather do a useful drill.

We never overdo the finish. The only time to overdo a finish is if you are trying to practice a finish so you can get back on track. The hand rolls out at the finish. You will never here me tell anyone to throw their hand forward to develop momentum. If you throw the hand it is like punching the water and the water will punch you back with equal force, but as I believe others may not agree. It's not a sloppy throw. Hands enter clean as always. The idea is to use the arms and body as a way to gather forward movement. I agree with the water punching back 100%. The concept is.... If one were to stand on a scale and flick their arms up to the ceiling...the scale gets lighter. Mass is moving upward. (Done in a pool...the energy is forward momentum.) When the hands and arms are thrown back at the finish ...momentum is sent in the wrong direction. It wants to be forward. It does sound strange...but this is a new approach, and has been taught at several clinics (by former Olmypians) including Rowdy Gaines.

Wow, this is a great Topic!!! And so much controversy!! I believe in the long, straight pull down (arm at shoulder width/no crossover) until the arm is perpendicular to the shoulder while underwater. At that time, my hips start the rotation, my arm does a tiny "s" movement as my hips rotate, and then my hand starts the recovery phase at mid-thigh. I take 11 strokes every 25 yards consistently. All I know is I travel a great amount of distance per stroke and my stroke count is always low. I know this helps me in distance swims because it conserves energy. If I have to sprint, I shorten the entire stroke movement from pull to recovery and pull again. Also, each of us are different and swim differently. I believe in basics being learned, but each person should keep their stroke as "natural" as possible for them within the guidelines. I teach this to children--swim natural with proper technique and they all swim differently. The best way to learn to swim is to watch GREAT swimmers--not necessarily a textbook. No sculling for me; it causes the water I have grabbed to "disappear." Once you grab a load of water, you need to see it through to the recovery. I don't think there is a magic bullet to answer this one!!! Just an old lady's point of view that works for me!! Don't know if this is important, but the 100 yard free I did (2 years ago), I swam it in 1:03 and I am 58 and FAT but huge triceps. Find the technique for YOU that works!!!

Solar Energy: I watched this one. Two questions. Can we do lat pulldowns with shoulder problems? Are you refering to lat pulldowns in the context of gym? Or do you mean swimming the freestyle focussing on this particular aspect of the pull through phase? And Hackett seems to be pushing his hands past his hips rather than using the early exit/front quadrant swimming. Or am I just looking at it wrong? umm. (should I venture on this slippery ground) :shakeshead: I too have the impression that Hackett fully optimize his pulling range. I'm a believer that there's few inches of distance per stroke to gain by optimizing the end of the pulling (the press phase). But I tend to believe that's because I'm an old fart that sticks to his old beliefs against all odds ;) Seriously, I once had relative success swimming with a massive press at the end. When I was younger, I could easily race mid/long distance pool events at 15-16 strokes per 25m by focussing on this explosive press. I insisted a lot on this aspect in my coaching too. But I think it was a mistake. Many high profile swimming eminences question this belief now. And I have to admit that when I got back to swimming in my 30s, I never got this explosive press feeling back. And never got my youth distance per stroke back neither. I never really understood why and simply blamed lack of dryland work (mainly triceps development) and... aging.

I am 6'3" my finger tips are halfway between my hip and knee when I stand square. I still finish very low on my thigh close to the knee but does this mean I am doing it wrong. I have watched a lot of swimmers who really extend the finish and have watched others exit the hand at the hip. They all seem to have it right. I remember Councilman saying that George Breen lost the Olympic 1500 because he did not finish his stroke. He told me that the hand is above the shoulders even when it was on your thigh. I believe he ment the hands are part of a lever above the fulcrum (the chest). From that momment on I finished lower on the thigh.

I too was taught to push past my hips in my youth. I've just been warned that continuing such an approach could hurt my shoulders. So I've been trying to correct that flaw. I also need to start counting my distance per stroke, especially when I'm swimming alone. I have no clue what mine is. Can someone refresh my memory on why finishing the stroke is hard on the shoulders? Isn't the finish largely a tricep extension? Why would that hurt the shoulder? I am a big fan of the GoSwim philosophy of one size does not fit all, figure out what works for you. I wonder if this shoulder issue is one of those "some people" issues in the same way that some people's shoulders are bothered by backstroke but are fine with fly while some people are fine with backstroke but have problems with fly, and the way that some people do well with one kick fly and some people do well with two kick fly, etc. etc.

The Hackett video that George posted offers a fantastic view of a stationary hand position. The key thing however is that his hand is changing it's pitch throughout the pull. Like a propellor. No "s" pull. It's as if he's grabbed onto the rung of an underwater ladder, and pulls himself past it.