Why is it that Masters level swimmers who participate in USS sanctioned meets under a separate USS registration can't have their times automatically qualify for USMS rankings and USMS National records? What is the reason for this separation? The rules with USMS and USS seem parallel enough to allow USS swims to qualify under USMS ranking and records. Do we care if elite older swimmers in their 30's (say Gary Hall Jr.) effectively end up owning the USMS national record by default? Is USMS afraid of merging to closely with USS? Why wouldn't USMS want to recognize the true best performance by and old man/women in the pool regardless of whether their card said USS or USMS on it?
John Smith
USA Swimming meets are automatically recognized by USMS (as are meets from all FINA member federations). Times achieved by USMS swimmers in recognized meets are acceptable for Top Ten and Records. It is the resonsibility of the competitor to provide the necessary data to the LMSC Top Ten recorder for it to be entered into the system as we cannot keep track of every USA Swimming meet.
BTW, I believe we are very close to finishing an agreement with USA Swimming to allow dual sanctioned meets. This would allow, with some restrictions, competitors from both organizations to be seeded and compete together.
Leo
The USMS record for the Men's LCM 50 free in the 30-34 age group is listed on this site as Robert Peel 22.8 3/12/96. At this year's Pan Pacs, Gary Hall Jr, a USMS member, swam a 22.46 at age 32. Does Rob lose his 10 year old record as the world's fastest masters swimmer to someone who did not achieve this time at a masters swim meet? Seems like kind of a big deal.
According to Leo's post Gary Hall's 50 free mark would count, but Gary would need to submit it to his LMSC. I believe Gary was entered at Worlds (though didn't swim), so he is an active member of USMS for 2006. Of course Pan Pacs is a FINA sanctioned meet. I doubt that would make any difference.
John,
The simple answer is because USMS chooses to keep records of what its members accomplish. It is just like USA Swimming doesn't keep track of open records anymore (I believe this to be true). It comes down to what do you have time to do and if you don't have time to do everything then what do you skip. There is/was an organization trying to promote swimming among adults that was keeping track of records for 1 year age groups. Nice idea maybe but it gets ridiculous at some point. I could probably be the record holder in many events for those born the same day as I was. As it was, the closest I got to a real record was to have the time that had to be beat to have the SCM 50 *** record (30-34) when USMS recognized SCM records.
Leo
This seems like a mostly theoretical question.
Why would a non-USMS swimmer who is registered only with USS and only swims in USS meets even be interested in masters records? I assume he/she would be world class anyway, in which event they wouldn't be looking at masters records. They'd be worrying about USS records and qualifying for National teams or Pan Pac teams.
Now if a USMS swimmer swims a USS meet, I think those times should automatically count. They're a USMS swimmer who's probably just looking for some serious competition. But I don't think purely USS Olympic-type swimmers should dominate the masters record board.
If they did, there would be a disconnect in the masters records. The records of the 35 & Under category could theoretically be dominated by elite USS swimmers who are still going strong. The 40 & over records would generally be held by real USMS swimmers.
Racer,
If you could point out the error to Mary Beth Windrath, she is the Records person, we would all appreciate it.
WRT records in USA-S meets, yes it a swimmer sets a records or thinks they might have a top ten time, they can submit it along with the proper documentation. I believe they should submit it to the LMSC Top Ten recorder of the LMSC where they are registered. Some of our eleite swimmers in the older age groups do this in areas where there are not many USMS meets. The stickler though is that one needs to have the pool length paperwork done. If it is a fixed length pool, then it is not a big deal. If it is a USA-S national championship or sectional championship, also not likely a big deal. If it is a pool with a bulkhead, you are going to have to convince someone to measure the pool for you.
Leo
The question becomes more of what if I want to be registered with both USS & USMS and swim at times in both organizations meets....as do quite a number of people these days: Susan V, Karlyn, Baker, etc. etc.....and if a record is set why shouldn't it be recognized by either organization?
I mean really....if Gary Hall Jr. breaks the world (not masters) record in the 5free at a masters meet why shouldn't it recognized as just that...by both USS & USMS?
I think the idea of dual sanctions makes complete sense and helps grow the sport!
PS: Now the fun part.....If John, Rowdy, Saeger & I swam the 200 free relay at a USS meet but we're swimming under the Texas Aquatics USS club....would/should that count as a USMS 40-44 record (if we broke it)?
I'm interested in how different organizations in the running community either recognize or don't recognize times.
Generally speaking, there is no problem between groups as long as the conditions under which a time is done meet certain criteria. For example, if a sprinter breaks the world 100 meter record at an NCAA meet, it will be recognized as long as:
1) The track is certified (distance, no slope, has a curb on the inside lane, etc)
2) A remeasurement of the 100 meter course shows it to be >= 100 meters.
3) There was a wind gauge in use and it read
Leo,
An example if I may-
The USMS record for the Men's LCM 50 free in the 30-34 age group is listed on this site as Robert Peel 22.8 3/12/96. At this year's Pan Pacs, Gary Hall Jr, a USMS member, swam a 22.46 at age 32. Does Rob lose his 10 year old record as the world's fastest masters swimmer to someone who did not achieve this time at a masters swim meet? Seems like kind of a big deal.
PS The record listed on this site for the Men's 25-29 50 free scy is incorrect. Rob Peel's 19.83 was beaten by Sabir Muhammed at the 2004 USMS Nationals with a 19.44.
Leslie......I think maybe it can and should be both? I mean we're seeing some incredible things going on in masters swimming with respect to the times in every age group. I mean come on....Trip Hedrick at 51 splitting a 23.7 long vourse 50m free??!!
So for those of us who actually want to see interest and participation in our sport grow (all levels, not just masters) why not have more collaboration?
Sadly the vast majority of high school/college swimmers out there see USMS as nothing more than a "fitness organization"...they really don't take us seriouslly when it comes to offering "real" compeitition.
But as folks like Susan make trails cuts and swimmers like Rich Abrahams at 61holding off Rowdy Gaines anchoring a relay get noticed...we get more credibility in the USS world and most likely more participation...and that to me makes it more fun.
Look, unlike Geeks assertion of Evil and my Texas size egos....the reality is we're willing to go swim against Longhorn Aquatics and get our butts whipped....and be given endless grief about blowing out the seems on our Speedo's....but it will be interesting because we'll put a beer bet :drink: on the line as long as they spot us say about 30 seconds in the 400 medley??!! :help:
