I realize this thread will create a lot of controversy.
Over the past five years I have worked very hard to develop clubs and increase membership in USMS. The very fabric of my work and others in this area is building relationships and comradairre within the LMSC and or Club. Small clubs and large teams are proud of their "elite" swimmers and boast of their successes. With this said, it is very disturbing to me as I read through the FINA World Championships Physch Sheets to see the number of elite swimmers "jumping ship" to other clubs to swim on "elite" relays. If USMS had "Team USMS" I would have no problem with everyone coming together for a team effort. I don't have a problem with four guys coming together who swam in college using the Worlds as reunion of sorts. Where I have problem is the swimmer or swimmers who have been a member of a club or LMSC for years and because of individual egos leaves his team. What this says to me is our "elite" swimmers ego is more important than his or her club. How do you think the other 3 swimmers who normally swims on the relay with the "elite" swimmer feels. We are good enough througout the year, however we are not good enough for the Worlds. Instead of swimming for his or her club so all members of the club can be proud of the "elite" swimmers accomplishments, it is more important to this swimmer he or she represent someone else at the Worlds for personal gratification. If the relay team does win and breaks a WR the record does not show USMS as the record holder, but the name of a club the swimmer transferred too.... what a shame...
It is regretable I bring up this discussion, but it tears at the very fabric of the USMS mission regarding building club or LMSC relationships...I realize what these swimmers are doing is within the rules.. I just think it is wrong.
Mel
Former Member
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
You are missing the point regarding the level of competition.
With all due respect I think you missed my point entirely.
The event in question is the FINA World Masters Championships and whether you agree with their reasoning or not FINA has defined that teams are to be made up of swimmers from the same club not the same country. Just because you want it to be a country against country competition doesn't mean it is. If country against country competition is what you want organizing your own competition is an option. You have found a way to defeat the intended purpose of the rules and give yourself an advantage over teams that abide by the spirit as well as the letter of the rules. That's your choice.
If the four fastest non-US swimmers got together and swam for Outer Hypothetia and beat out the US for Olympic Gold because they decided that the Olympics were about four people getting together to see what they could do rather than country on country competition people would have a valid basis for objecting, even if it was all done perfectly legal. The parallel is pretty exact.
Personally I don't care one way or another, I'm just making the case for why this isn't just about four guys and what they want to do, it's also about the other competitors and other people holding and contending for world records.
It should be pointed out that what is now being seen as a "Smith" or "TYR" thing in swimming for a team/club that a peron doesn't train with is extremally common......we're just on point here and willing to speak our minds and happy to take any flak that comes with it......but look a little closer at those psch sheets!
For that matter, go back thru any prior nationals/worlds/etc. and look a little closer at the relays.....you would most likely be blown away at how few are "pure" in the way that a few people here think things should be.
And Mel.....lets examine something else if we may. How many pools in the Indanapolis area does Indy Swim Fit control? Don't get me wrong.....you've been exceptional at what you've done in your area, but you do have quite a monopoly......something some would/have pointed to as a bit hypocritical in your criticism of combined teams!
Mr. Shirley......if I haven't been tarred and feathered by Sunday I be glad to have you buy me a beer :)
Some of these "recruited relays" are there to win and break records. I think the win part is OK but to beat records held by groups all from the same team is just not right. I also have a problem with states competing as a team at Nationals. I mean come on California as one team. Gee, do you think they would win and break records in relays?? I have been on relays that have lost records in this way so try to put yourself in my position.
Originally posted by Its a slow show
Some of these "recruited relays" are there to win and break records. I think the win part is OK but to beat records held by groups all from the same team is just not right. I also have a problem with states competing as a team at Nationals. I mean come on California as one team. Gee, do you think they would win and break records in relays?? I have been on relays that have lost records in this way so try to put yourself in my position.
Do you think it is cheating, something like adding steroids to your team??
I have never been able to swim a relay at a large national event because we generally do not have a large enough team participation at the National meets to field even a fun relay. We have great people on the team but they just do not turn out for the Big meets or our ages are so spread out. It would be fun to swim a relay at Nationals or Worlds! Swimming for a new team, combining or even creating a team that has very active swimmers in your age bracket would make that meet a lot more fun and not just about your own personal achievements or failures.
I guess its to late to change teams and swim in a relay??????? I guess I will go drink wine that day.
Sandie......Laura and I have drank with you and Kevin, and sorry buddy but you (and Kevin) would NEVER qualify under the "holding your liquor" standard!
Cheap wine & cold beer......the essence of TRUE masters swimmers!
Lindsay,
Contrary to you supposed logic, we have not found a way to defeat the intended purpose of the rules. To suggest that any dues paying USMS member can not switch teams at any time for any personal reason is absurd.
Contrary to your accusingly selfish statement about four guys doing what they want to do, note that ALL the competitors are equally able to do the same thing should they so chose. You are free to cast judgement about what your think is ethically right given your interpretation of FINA rules. But in the end, it's about connecting with old friends, enjoying masters swimming and trying to create a fast relay.
Much to do about nothing in my opinion.
John Smith
Years ago I felt quite passionate about this issue; latterly, I tend to the live and let live school. As a matter of fact, I can see some appeal in selecting a USNats to compete with teams based on these forums: as already noted, 'Team Smith', 'The Special K's (where are those girls?), 'Team Facile' (me, Geek, Gull etc), Team Thesaurus(Matt, Lindsay) Team 'Late Bloomers'...whoops, only one allowed on that team...
All I did was explain the logic which underlies the dim view some people hold of this practice.
As I've said twice, I personally don't care.
If you could find an actual flaw in the argument I made that would be of greater interest to me than the rhetorical tack you have chosen.
Some people believe the intent of the FINA rules is that swimmers will compete with their own club and have a particular mental model of what a club is. Some people believe that technical legality is an insufficient basis for failing to respect the intentions of the host organization. It's really that simple. I did not say you had to care what these people thought of your actions.
Rob, here in Canada the rules are pretty much the same as yours and as a result there are two provinces that will be sending teams under the guise of a provincial "club". The bigger and generally more successful clubs think this is a scandal, the competitors from the smaller clubs are generally more approving.
The first nail in the coffin of "club" competition was when people accepted the desire to swim relays as justification for super clubs instead of sticking to the use of exhibition relays. After that it was one long slippery slope. Please excuse my mixing of metaphors.
