Controversy...Is it all about winning!

Mr Goodsmith: I see that Kokkole did an Italian Job on your analysis of the relays. I think at this point to try to speculate who is doing this is pointless. I hope that we find other teams doing it because it will be ammunition for FINA to change the Masters MGR 3 rule to FINA General Swimming Rules GR1 and GR2. And as Paul said are we really sure everyone is pure as regard to relays and combined teams? I think the biggest difference now compared to 1988, is that masters swimming is bigger around the world then it was back then and I think there has been a change in attitudes regarding this. One of the main points of controversy back then was the financial incentives and how that was a lure to swimmers to form a team. Remember, back then swimming was not a professional sport and no one made any money off the sport that was still competiting. Today its very different with sponsors and all. I know that Team TYR did not use financial incentives and that is a big difference than what happened in 1988. I believe something has to be explored to try to change this rule. An example would be to take a survey of the competiting nations swimmers at the World Championships and see what they think of a National Delegation entry. If there is an interest, then it should go from there. The main point of this change is, will it affect participation of the swimming population that attends the World Championship? Will it be looked at as to competitive and not in the interests of the majority of swimmers? If these areas are not adversly effected with the change then I can see a chance for this change. There is a lot of work to do and this my not happen overnight. But if this did ever happen we would not have the controversy we have had since 1988.

Frank, I have noticed in previous discussions here about various types of super teams at Nationals and in discussions in Canada as well that people tend to favor a setup in which "their side" is most likely to win. The big clubs that are most likely to win at Nationals if everyone else also competes on a club basis are the ones that get upset about smaller teams banding together into state teams etc. People from smaller clubs are the most likely to support being able to join up with a larger team. I wonder if the United States would benefit more from a National team approach than most countries due to its larger size? Right now a club from a small country is on a relatively even footing with a club from a larger country excepting that clubs from larger cities have an advantage. Do you think that the rest of the world will want to see nation against nation competition or will they view it sort of like people would view a California team in US national competition? Personally I don't like unenforceable rules and I think masters swimming would suffer from trying to set up rules that would ensure "real club competition", but I don't think Masters swimming is really about nation against nation competition either. There is a whole lot of baggage that comes with national teams (selection process for example) that just doesn't jibe with the ideals of masters swimming. I think you would get more support outside the US for "open" competition where anyone can form a team than for national teams.

Lindsey: You bring up some excellent points. I am not sure how the masters swimming world views this. It always sounds nice to think that we could have our own "Masters Olympics" like swimming does but then we are not set up like an Olympic sport and we don't have National Teams. Most National Teams responsibilities are for the best team performance which includes medal production, records, and being the best nation performing in the sport. I not sure how that ideal gets transfered to masters swimming and how it would effect the goals, objectives, and mission of masters swimming. Plus how would each nation manage this and set critera as to what a National team is suppose to be made of and should the meet be swam with only these caliber of swimmers. I aways mention back to 1988 because it was so obvious as to the superteam concept that Holmes Lumber Jax had. If you go to the FINA site and look up the results of the 1988 Championship you will see that Holmes won 30 out 36 relays that were contested at the meet and in 6 of those instances they got first and second. That was where this fire started and there has not been a performance like that since. One of the big reasons why this worked was the funding that was provided by the club. My observation about the Masters World Championships is that its takes time, committment and money to go on these swimming trips. All the people that attend these championships frequently are not necessarily swimmers that would make a national team. So unless there is funding provided by the masters delegation or a sponsor then I can't see this thing taking off. Another point to consider is the qualifing aspect of the meet. Up until about 8 years ago FINA did not have qualifing standards for swimmers attending the meet and now they do but they are not has hard as our USMS National standards. Does this mean they don't put a great emphasis on speed but on participation. And if participation is the most important aspect of the mission, then how will incorporating the speed element of the swimmers affect that particpation. I believe that is the real key here because FINA does not want a meet of the size of our USMS Nationals. Your point about open competition is kinda of happening right now in that clubs can take a swimmer from a different nation and he can register with anyone he wants as long as he meets the timing requirements of National registration rules. Maybe this is a can of worms that no one wants to deal with and leaving it the way it is currently, is what is going to happen.

Question: Do these 4 guys live in the same city or general area in Italy? 1) Giuseppe, Tiano M38 2) Agostinone, Andrea M37 3) Machesi, Fabio M43 4) Savino, Metello M43 John Smith

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith Question: Do these 4 guys live in the same city or general area in Italy? 1) Giuseppe, Tiano M38 2) Agostinone, Andrea M37 3) Machesi, Fabio M43 4) Savino, Metello M43 John Smith They all live in the city of Milan, and work out together regularly.

Originally posted by Frank Thompson My observation about the Masters World Championships is that its takes time, committment and money to go on these swimming trips. All the people that attend these championships frequently are not necessarily swimmers that would make a national team. So unless there is funding provided by the masters delegation or a sponsor then I can't see this thing taking off. Good point about the money aspect of holding a national representative world championships. "Open" Masters World Championships (and, over here, the European Masters Championships) attract several thousands of swimmers and their families. The reason cities volunteer to host these events is not solely due to the desire to see old folks swim against each other, but rather to fill up hotel rooms and get a share of the tourist dollar (or euro). Secondly, swimming (especially masters) is not a mass-market sport, but about participation. There is no TV money to fund the events and the spectator galleries are full of the participants, not paying fans. Finally, I'd say, the relays at Worlds are fine the way they are. You do your best and try to beat who's there. If they're too good this year, wait till the Worlds are held somewhere less attractive to visitors from North America, such as Casablanca in 1998 (the location for my only World golds). It's just a game!

latest news from Italy (just heard from Giuseppe Tiano): The DDS relay team may not be able to race, as Fabio Marchesi (fly) is not yet sure that he can make it. The other 3 swimmers will be at Stanford for their individual events. Ciao! PS: I'm all for national, rather than team, representation for relays at the Worlds. I'm all for elite teams, too! I just love watching good swimming! :cool:

There's a simple solution to downgrading the aggressive level of this meet and keeping it from becoming more "tainted" as has been suggested in terms of elite performances and elite relay combinations from so called unrelated swimmers. Just don't call it a "World Championship"...... don't have cut off times for slower swimmers and don't measure world record performances. This will certainly keep it at a more local team and individual performance level. Note, however, it is currently not portrayed as anything but a higher end championship or "competitive" endeavor for masters swimmers......... hence the drive to swim faster with faster relays. John smith

When we came up with the idea of a relay day, it was a way to have fun; to bring out some of the swimmers who might not want to swim at Worlds, but you could get your team mates out there to swim in a 200, after all it is only a 50. It was also a way to get all the relays in worlds. In past worlds, just the mixed medley and the mixed free were raced. Now all the 200s will have be raced. It will be a chance for swimmers to swim in great facilities and deep water. It will also be a chance to dive off of blocks that are right at the height limit - dont look down. We also thought that it would be a short day, and give the swimmers a chance to rest, for those teams with few swimmers, they could go traveling and the out of town officials would get a chance to tour the area. I thought we would be out of the pool by 1pm-2pm. Well there are almost 1,500 relay teams entered and it will be normal day. I have heard from many people that they are looking forward to swim in the relays and compete for their team. FUN-FITNESS- and Competition. Lets have some fun for all. If records get broken, that is fine - there will certainly be the competition there. Of course, with all the competion going on, it might be fun to turn on the team calculator to see which team scores the most points. Double points for relays. michael

Michael, I like the concept of "relay day". It's a different flavor from masters Nationals and meet formats that I grew up with as a kid. Should be amusing to see so many old people out there grinding up water. We will drink beers at the end of the day and complain about our aches and pains, regardless. John Smith