Should USA Swimming recruit?

Your personal experiences with one Brazilian 20 years ago really don't justify some global argument with putting US students at a disadvantage by closing our borders and limiting competition. I'm not exactly sure what you think our industries would gain by insuring that we only educate US citizens who must leave college and spend the next 30-40 years of their lives competing on a global scale. It's kinda like when I thought I was a pretty fast swimmer cause I could keep up with most of the fast guys on my team. Then, I went to a national meet and realized I kinda sucked. But, it challenged me to improve more. And, I'm don't understand why you think folks should jump out of the water and immediately praise the US. That's kind of silly and it would look silly.

Enough already with the bickering about NCAA scholarships. You argue until you're blue in the face over pennies in the grand scheme of things. Lest we all forget, Paul started this conversation about Qatar paying European athletes a whole lot more money than a college scholarship to swim for their country. That is the real cheese. That may change the nature of our sport. We in swimming have not yet got our heads around the fact the Olympic Committee threw out the shamatuerism rules several years ago. We still think that there is no money in world class swimming, because there never has been any in the past. That was only true because the Olympics kicked you out of the pool if you took any. That is no longer the case. There is professional open water swimming in Australia because the very best can earn a living in prize money and endorsements. There is professional triathloning the world over because the very best can earn a living in prize money and endorsements. We are just now taking baby steps in generating prize money and endorsements in swimming. Like it or hate it, Qatar's action is changing the terrain. AND, looking at this from another angle, just how much of a swimmer's career is supported by 4 years of a college scholarship? How about all the money mom & dad put into club swimming? How about all the support before a swimmer heads off to college? I don't hear much call for U.S. clubs and high schools to kick off of their teams all the non-U.S. citizens on the argument that we are spending "American" dollars to support other countries' future Olympians. However, I think the ages of say 10-18 have a lot more to do with creating a world class swimmer than finishing school from 18-22. The skin-deep jingoism about college scholarships is so tiresome. Who cares?! This affects so few swimmers in any meaningful fashion. Matt

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith Training foreigners in the US for the altruistic world wide benefit of sports is pure crap. I think, bottom line, is we have different views of competition. You think sticking our heads in the sand and hoping we are the best is the way to promote competition. I think exposing ourselves to the best and even paying for it from time to time makes us better. Considering the US' continued dominance in sports despite a huge increase in participation by the rest of the world, maybe the head in the sand thing just isn't the way to go.

I too think the sky is falling. I see a post of the geek's, and I am all ready to reply with crushing logic and wit, and then, I read his post! I agree with it! (just so long as we don't talk about it over a cup of coffee)

I too was amazed to find myself agreeing with the geek's posts on the scholarship/recruiting topics. He has to be a product of Duke (truly one of the top universities in the world) Ian. PS: the geek will be pleased to know that the US looking at building a $4 Billion moat/fence along the Canadian border which should keep him safe from the likes of Cruise. (but might cost a few swimming scholarships).

Phil, First you say.... "I would rather federal money be spent of good foreign students than feceral money be spent on mediocre domestic students.......... If there were enough domestic students to do the work (note, this is five or six years of near slave labor) then they would do the work. If there aren't enough domestic students, foreign students will be brought in. " then you say.... "The United States can buy athletes if it wants, but it does not have to. I do not think it is a good idea for the United States to be buying athletes, it has plenty of good ones as it is, and I would rather spend the money on better research." These are two competing thoughts. Either there are enough students and athletes here to do the job or there are not. My opinion is that there are certainly enough here, and they deserve our money and attention first. My experience with a foreign exchange student living in my home during my senior year in highschool (and swimming on our team) was not as rewarding as your academic experience with international students. I found him selfish, critical and unappreciative. He took a swimming scholarship at WVa and left for home in Brazil eventually. As far as I am concerned, our country is no better off from his visit. John Smith

Lindsay, It doesn't matter if its the "cold war" as you say or the Australians or Dutch in the 21st century. It's the same battle in the end in the pool. As I've said before, it's "competitive" swimming, not "open swim". .....and... yes.... I'm not interested in funding other countries training programs and olympic efforts in any capacity. I suppose if the South Africans immediately acknowledged their success after their free relay at Greece on TV as being partially (if not directly) attributed to the training and money they received in the US, I'd feel less adamant about the whole issue. But to assume or portray it as a "South African" victory........ I fundamentally disagree....... the only thing South African was their parent's address. John Smith

Originally posted by TheGoodSmith These are two competing thoughts. Either there are enough students and athletes here to do the job or there are not. My opinion is that there are certainly enough here, and they deserve our money and attention first. Your steadfast refusal to separate out the different actors and their interests is undermining the logic of your arguments. There is no contradiction in saying that there are enough great swimmers in the US to fill the Olympic roster and saying there are not enough high quality students to do all the research that universities want to do or enough world class domestic swimmers to allow all the college teams to have a few. So far the disagreements all eventually come down to different ideas on what the motivations for offering athletic scholarships are or should be. Ignoring those differences just results in people talking past one another.

Geek, Who said anything about "praising the US" ? You're getting out on a tangent here. My anecdote on the Brazilian foreign exchange student was a response in kind to Phil's own stated experience regarding international students in the US. I disagree with him in part from personal experience. Training foreigners in the US for the altruistic world wide benefit of sports is pure crap. If the planet earth had a solar system competition in sports you'd have a point. We could then all join interntional hands and sing "khumbaya" on the same world relay team. But the reality is quite different and simple. You represent your country at the Olympics. If you want to win you must be competitive, not stupid. John Smith

I did use a personal anecdote to strengthen my case, and it is fair to respond with another. However, a High School exchange experience is hardly relevent if we want to talk about top-quality intellects or top-quality swimmers. I have been taught by foreign students, worked with foreign students, taught foreign students, and mentored foreign students. I did this a several high quality academic institutions at the Ph.D. level in Phyics, Engineering, and Chemistry, at the Univerisity of Chicago, University of Colorado, Notre Dame University, and Stanford University. Not all of my experiences were positive, most were. My anecdotal experience is also 'common knowledge,' that good students improve the academic institution and creates higher-quality scientists. I think the same is true for swimming. So if the purpose of scholarships is to make better American world-class swimmers than scholarships should be given to foreign swimmers. If the purpose is to make a more competitive NCAA, scholarships should be given to foreign swimmers. If the purpose is to make better swim teams that win more meets, then scholarships should be given to foreign students. If the purpose is to reward middle-class swimmers who have worked hard but aren't good enough to become finalist in the NCAA champs . . . well, John has me there.