Should USA Swimming recruit?

I do agree with gull's point here. I just don't think it's any big national emergency.

Originally posted by aquageek Huh? The vast majority of athletes never earn a single dime professionally. And, I'm not talking 51%, it's like 99.9%. What you think the only external reward is money.... you have got to be kidding me. I believe most athletes don't earn money, but most athletes don't compete because they love to do it. Kids know what a our society is about. Why do something for nothing, when you can get something. Man, my four year old daughter expects some kind of treat when she achieves a soccer goal. I don't give her one, but she still believes that she should have an external reward. What else are they suppose to believe when all the see on TV is hugh rewards for physical activity.

"and the N in NCAA will still stand for National so what are those foreigners doing competing in your meets?" The N is just a symbol and not real. Like the NBA allowing foreign players into the league. The USMS Nationals allowing foreigners to compete in our meets.

Smith: You ever planning on quoting any facts that show there is detriment to foreigners coming to the US and improving our competitive abilities in swimming and industry? If not, you are just flapping your wings in your little cage. Considering the US has always prided itself on competition and then whooping that competition, don't you think you are bing a little bit of a chicken, in a chicken cage? Does that Brazilian exchange student still give you nightmares? Is this really a personal vendetta? I'm petty sure you could beat him in a swim meet these days.

Phil, If foreign countries paid as many US athletes to come to their countries to swim I would somewhat agree with you. But there is little to no benefit for really good US swimmers to train abroad these days. The programs in other countries like Australia for example are great but offer no incremental or intrinsic benefits over great training programs in the US. Consequently, there is almost ZERO exchange in when it comes to US swimmers receiving the same financial benefits and superior program inducements in foreign countries. The imbalance is troubling. It's not give and take...... it's just give on the training side. Secondly, you assume that foregin students are mostly "good students" as you put it. That's a hell of an assumption. I can assure you we have plenty of "good" students and "good" swimmers in the US that could use the money first and our industries and swim teams would benefit from it. Relying on foreign students for your advancement in educational intellect is marginal and somewhat sad if you think about it. Relying on foreign swimmers to make US swimmers better is also a farce. Been there and seen it, Phil. I swam against foreign student athletes at NCAAs and then watched them go home to their own countries for international competition. It's frustrating to say the least. Insulting is probably a better description. When I swam at UT we had no foreign swimmers. Yet, I can assure you, I found the competition QUITE sufficient to advance my own career. Unless of course you think that list of former World Record and American Record holders on UT back then could have also drawn such wonderful and incredible additional workout benefits and advancements from foreign competition. Your argument makes me laugh a little when I think about the intensive competition that already exists on top 10 Division I teams. To think that foreign swimmers are actually "helping" US swimmers get faster on a daily basis in workout and then substantiating it as a reason for funneling scholarship money away from other US talent boarders on the absurd. I've said it before on this forum. For the men (or women) in the Olympics on a relay team representing the US, it is a battle in the pool. Believe it or not, like it or not, there are years of training, life time goals and country pride on the line. They are not interested in making friends with each other just before they step up on the blocks. For less than 4 minutes, it is total acquatic warfare. It's not about getting along during this time. It's about winning.... period. Your concept of continuing to train foreigners does not help the US. We will have to agree to disagree. We are so far apart on the spectrum we almost touch. John Smith

Originally posted by Matt S This affects so few swimmers in any meaningful fashion. Bad day, Matt and I agree. According to some, however, this is a serious issue impacting America in ways we can't even begin to fathom. National security is at risk. Now, I'm taking my kids to see Chicken Little because the sky is falling.

I submit that foreign swimmers are recruited for one reason--they're fast and will win races, consequently the team will win championships. That's the bottom line. I don't believe they're brought in to create a more competitive training environment. The fact that we're training our competitors for the next Olympics doesn't seem to be much of a disincentive to the coaches. As for academics, most private universities strive for a diverse student body and admit qualified foreign students to help achieve that diversity. However, I believe there are quotas limiting the number of out of state students who are admitted to state universities (and charged a higher tuition).

Originally posted by gull80 I submit that foreign swimmers are recruited for one reason--they're fast and will win races, consequently the team will win championships. That's the bottom line. I don't believe they're brought in to create a more competitive training environment. The fact that we're training our competitors for the next Olympics doesn't seem to be much of a disincentive to the coaches. I am very doubtful that any coach would recruit or spend scholarship money on a foreign swimmer if that swimmer couldn't compete for the school. Presuming everyone accepts that, the question becomes whether the benefits to the school of having a more winning team justify the expenditure of the scholarship money? In the end this applies to domestic as well as foreign scholarships. How much does it matter to the school if their star swimmers are foreign or not? If they can get a world class foreign swimmer or a not world class domestic swimmer should they sacrifice the success of their program in hopes of creating a less competitive environment for the US team at the Olympics? It is easy to talk about selfish coaches but are the coaches acting out of pure self-interest or the interest of their programs? And, although slippery slope arguments are generally the last refuge of scoundrals, why stop at banning scholarships? If foreign governments start giving their swimmers support to train at US schools don't all the same arguments support banning them attending at all? After all, no matter who is paying they are receiving the benefit of the coaching and facilities and will go on to compete against US athletes in international competition. Your tax dollars will still be going to pay to build the facilities and pay the coaches and US citizens will still be displaced, and the N in NCAA will still stand for National so what are those foreigners doing competing in your meets?

You ask.... ...."are the coaches acting out of pure self-interest or the interest of their programs" These two interests had better be aligned, or there are certainly going to be problems. Gull is dead on. Coaches grab talent from abroad to further their own team's success at NCAAs (and possibly win) which helps their own professional success as well as job security at the school. You state..... "If foreign governments start giving their swimmers support to train at US schools don't all the same arguments support banning them attending at all?" Answer: No.... the issue is not one of banning foreigners altogether from swimming in the US. The issue is one of funneling money to US citizens over foreigners at a collegiate level. They come on their own dime if they want to. Note: Except for a few exempt professional swimmers now, the NCAA already is a mini Olympic preview. The N in NCAA hardly means National any more.

I think no country should be aloud to recruit athelits from other countries its just wrong you should have to be a american national to compete in the usa team, or a british national to compete in the uk team... etc...