There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Education as charity, that's new to me. I guess that means for poorer folks or unemployed folks whose children attend public schools, that is charity also.
Originally posted by Paul Smith
I'm for "diversity", I'm pro "legal" immigration, what I am not is happy about any US tax dollars supporting any college sports program that pays the way for a foeighn athelte when there may be even ONE US swimmer who could have it.
I'd be interested to know your position on foreign companies who pay US taxes. You seem to forget that many foreign corporations pay plenty of US taxes. US tax dollars does not mean that only US corps are paying the tax dollars.
Originally posted by botterud
Why? What is so magical about being "American?" Other than for those who moved here and were naturalized isn't it just really an accident of birth? Why draw artificail boundaries?
I don’t think magic has much to do with being an American, but we are each entitled an opinion.
As for drawing artificial boundaries, while I’ll agree that the border between the US and Canada and the US and Mexico are somewhat arbitrary, they are both pretty well fixed by law. And can we agree that the US’s eastern and western boundaries are more than artificial? But I digress; this thread started out discussing NCAA (the “N” stands for National, which in this case is the United States) and the discussion is taking place on the USMS Discussion Forum (the US stands for United States).
Originally posted by LindsayNB
If athletic scholarships are meant to attract top notch athletes to contribute to the school's athletic program then giving them to foreign students makes perfect sense.
Absolutely! And we should also drop the student from student/athlete, allowing the colleges to recruit these top athletes without worrying about things such as education. Let’s turn our college athletic programs into junior programs for the NBA and NFL. And while you’re at it why don’t we pay these athletes.
But, these are way off the original topic “2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here?” Personally, I see both benefits and detriments, must of which have already been stated numerous times in this thread. One detriment that has yet to be mentioned is the impact of the talent drain in Irish, English and South African national college swimming. What damage is being done to the quality of competition at the FCAA (French College Athletic Association)?
So odd that by helping other nations improve the educational status by educating a few people you consider this charity. Ultimately, US educated folks worldwide benefits us much more that the few thousand dollars we spend on a 4 year degree. Time to look at the big picture. There are many world leaders and dignitaries educated in the US. If you don't think there's a benefit from that, then you are wrong.
It continues to amaze me that people want to close the doors of this country like we are still in the 1800s. You don't go through a single day without tangible benefits from US education being applied to goods and services produced abroad and consumed here. And, yet, you consider this charity, and not a benefit. We live in a global economy. For us to maintain our supremecy in it we have to be willing to be the most active participant and that includes educating a few folks.
Can I just remind everybody that America is not would it would be today w/out having people from all over.
Have we forgotten how this country was founded?
I sometimes can't stand this America is holy-er than thou routine-kind of sickening.
Originally posted by aquageek
Are only swimming scholarships charity? Did you ever see Boris Yeltsin swim? Man, he could really move in the 50 fly.
But, Reagan could kick his butt in anything 100 or over:)
Originally posted by nkace
Can I just remind everybody that America is not would it would be today w/out having people from all over.
Have we forgotten how this country was founded?
I sometimes can't stand this America is holy-er than thou routine-kind of sickening.
And to all you human beings out there have you forgotten where you came from? If it wasn’t for pond scum and swamp gasses billions of years ago the human race would have never been founded! I sometimes can't stand mankind is holier than thou routine-kind of sickening.
Are we really that much better then the pond scum?
I sure would like some tangible information that shows promising US swimmers aren't going to college because of foreign swimmers. I think it's being blown way out of proportion.
As to this notion that US hard earned dollars are being wasted on foreigners, that is short sighted. Private schools can do what they want. Public schools also solicit donations from individuals and corporations not housed in the US. Also, many foreign firms and individuals from foreign countries that are here pay US taxes that support public universities. Colleges and University licensed products are sold worldwide. In the case of my U, those proceeds go directly to scholarships (or used to anyway). It's awfully hard to find a US only dollar anywhere these days.
Originally posted by TheGoodSmith
As for athletes thanking someone post performance, Hell, I'd be impressed if the South Africans just thanked their American coach on TV to acknowledge their US presence.... no such luck...... it was a pure and righteous South African victory all on there own, based on the talent, facilities and coaching skills of South Africa.
Actually, in the TV interview with Roland on the CBC he did acknowledge his US coach and stated that he hoped their win would result in better support for swimming in South Africa. Even the member of the team that actually trained in SA talked about the support from his teammates in the US rather than his coach and program at home.
Tall Paul,
Until your post, this had been, in my view, a pretty spirited and intelligent exchange of ideas. If you think that calling people who disagree with you "idiots" is the way to sway opinion, I might suggest you re-think that tact.
Beyond that, the discussion of diversity on college campuses is intrinsic to the debate. To narrow the parameters to "swimming and scholarships" without putting the issue into the broad context . . . . without permitting discussions of the ramifications that flow from policy discussions, does not promote a healthy and intelligent exchange of ideas.
Moreover, to assert that "political" discussion has no place here would fundamentally eliminate the ability to engage in this debate which is, in fact, rooted in politics. If the only issue was swimming and scholarship, then citizenship would have nothing to do with the discussion. Money would go to the fastest, period.
The premise of this discussion focuses on the notion of citizenship and drawing lines based thereon. Accordingly, politics, civics and cultural issues are part and parcel of the premise that started this discussion.
So my suggestion would be to back off of the insults and engage in intelligent debate or sit back and watch until you can do so.
carl botterud
